[TriEmbed] TriEmbed Digest, Vol 44, Issue 18

Sat Jan 21 08:42:50 CST 2017

I was surprised at how well the Eagle 7.7.7 Autorouter worked on a recent
board. It felt like a big improvement from my memory of v6 autorouting. I
did a few iterations of of moving parts and used Net Classes to define the
width of my signal, Vcc and Vin lines and was able to autoroute the board
to 100% with 66 mil power traces (I will go back and work on a ground pour
after the last connectors are finalized). It worked well enough that I may
have a hard time talking myself into hand-routing the power rails on the
final board (it looks workable without hand-routing). But this is a low
speed board with an expected max current of 2 amps.

But I am working my way through the KiCAD Blinky tutorial. I did like the
monthly option on the Eagle licences. It seems you could use the Free
option for personal projects and then spend $15 for the month when you need
to spin a board for pay. Or when you need 4 layers. And then drop back to
Free when you finish that project.

Shane

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 9:14 AM Chip McClelland via TriEmbed <
triembed at triembed.org> wrote:

> Glen,
>
> Great points and important because it is exactly the folks who learn,
> adopt and contribute to open source tools like KiCad that will push
> Autodesk to improve EAGLE.
>
> Remember Internet Explorer before Firefox came along?  Both products are
> as good as they are today because of competition.  There is one other
> difference though - and this could be a bit troubling.  You can have a
> number of open source browsers because the web pages you are browsing
> conform to standards (HTML, CSS, etc).  This commercial / open source model
> does not work as well without standards as we saw with M$ Office versus
> Open Office.  At some point, as you mentioned below, everyone uses a tool
> like M$ Office because everyone is using M$ Office.  At that point, the
> market share of all the competitors drops considerably or is pushed to a
> niche market (like education).  Then M$ can charge what they want and
> innovate only if it is convenience (“ribbon bar” anyone).
>
> I wonder whether the community and the marketplace should start to push
> for more consistent adoption of a single, well defined standard for
> electronic CAD programs like Gerber x2
> <https://www.ucamco.com/files/downloads/file/81/the_gerber_file_format_specification.pdf?faff23f7ac91476077eaee2375727ec3>.
> This could enable an industry with many choices of CAD programs with all
> having the same access to footprints, design rules, automated workflow and
> manufacturing.  Perhaps it is a community push for broad adoption of a
> standard that will have the biggest impact.  This outcome will ensure a
> market that is competitive enough to avoid the abuses voiced by the mafia
> man in your note.
>
> After all, it is choice and competition that will bring makers like us the
> best tools to build cool stuff.
>
> Chip
>
> On Jan 20, 2017, at 4:20 PM, Glen Smith <mrglenasmith at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I whole-heartedly agree with your closing statement Chip. "Each and every
> year they will need to earn my business." As we move into the two competing
> models, "software as a service" with rental agreement and yearly fee,
> versus open source "Free" software, there needs to be a VERY compelling
> reason for me to part with my cash. The fact that IBM, Autodesk and
> Microsoft can get away with it is due in large part to their status as 500
> pound gorillas in their respective silos. As an end user, it leaves me
> feeling taken advantage of rather than an enthusiastic unpaid salesman for
> software that I believe in.
>
> I am proficient in a very limited area of AutoCAD since I use it daily at
> work, however, in my role as a mentor at The Forge, I encourage students to
> learn any of the free CAD packages over AutoCAD. We use Google Docs,
> Sheets, and the various other office tools there as well, rather than any
> of the M$ Office Suite.
>
> I understand that software development takes resources. I still feel like
> I'm dealing with organized crime when I'm told:
> [stereotypical mafia voice]
> We gots this great software, you can rent it for a great deal, ya know,
> yearly like, so we can UPdate it and keep it SECURE, ya wouldn't want your
> software to not be secure wouldja? It'd be a terrible thing if your
> computer got, I dunno, INFECTED or sump'in, wouldn' it? Just you give us
> your credit card number and we'll keep things updated and secure, and
> nobody gets hurt, right?
> [/stereotypical mafia voice]
>
> I've been wanting to learn either Eagle or KiCad for a while, the decision
> just got easier for me. Now I just have to actually do it.
>
> Glen
>
> On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:28 PM Chip McClelland via TriEmbed <
> triembed at triembed.org> wrote:
>
> All,
>
> I think there are two issues in the responses I have read so far.
>
> 1) EAGLE versus KiCad - This is one of these debates like Mac vs. PC where
> each side is convinced of their superiority.  Like that debate, I don’t
> think there is one right answer.  It comes down to how you like to work.
> For me, I prefer the EAGLE workflow with the tightly coupled and
> synchronized schematic and layout views.  I am not saying this is better,
> it is just better for me.  The recent announcement seems to bring some
> great new features with more and more frequent updates promised.
>
> 2) Rent versus own - My day job is selling software for IBM and, I can
> assure you that it is not just Autodesk that is moving to the rental
> model.  Let’s take the Standard profile of $15/month and compare to some
> other rental models that now exist: Microsoft 365 - $6.99/month, Acrobat
> Document Cloud - $14.99/mo, Autocad Fusion 360 - $40/month, Adobe Photoshop
> Creative Cloud (single app) $19.99 /month.  Like it or not, the software
> industry is moving to this model.  Whether it is worth $15/month is
> entirely up to you and how much you use this tool.  Like Pete, I consider
> the value of my time with auto routing, better routing tools and a broad
> range of footprints / designs available as EAGLE libraries.
>
> I think I will give EAGLE a shot but one downside for Autodesk in this
> model.  *Each and every year, they will need to earn my business.*  With
> the rate of Ki-Cad improvement, they had better deliver on their promises.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chip
>
>
> On Jan 20, 2017, at 1:00 PM, triembed-request at triembed.org wrote:
>
> Send TriEmbed mailing list submissions to
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>
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Eagle now subscription-only (Alex Davis)
>   2. Re: Eagle now subscription-only (Pete Soper)
>   3. Re: Eagle now subscription-only (Jesse Griggs)
>   4. Re: Eagle now subscription-only (Brian)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:36:42 -0500
> From: Alex Davis <alexd at matrixwide.com>
> To: triembed at triembed.org
> Subject: [TriEmbed] Eagle now subscription-only
> Message-ID:
> <1484919402.2703977.854031072.1BFDED53 at webmail.messagingengine.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Time to learn KiCad?
>
>
> http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/
>
> Free version is still free, but beyond that you'll have to rent it.
>
> --
> "The theater of noise is proof of our potential."
> |\ |  (?  \/ |?\  |V| |\ ?|? |?) | \/ | | | |?\ (?   /?  /\ |V|
> |-||_ (_  /\ |_/ @| | |-| |  | \ | /\ |^| | |_/ (_ . \_  \/ | |
>
> You won't find me on Facebook.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 12:01:14 -0500
> From: Pete Soper <pete at soper.us>
> To: triembed at triembed.org
> Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Eagle now subscription-only
> Message-ID: <bfb5518c-cbcc-a2be-7e9e-8dce2f709e99 at soper.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> On 01/20/2017 08:36 AM, Alex Davis via TriEmbed wrote:
>
> Time to learn KiCad?
>
>
> http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/
>
> Free version is still free, but beyond that you'll have to rent it.
>
> So for $100 vs the earlier $69 you get 160 square centimeters, two
> layers and more schematic pages, but only for a year.  As you say,
> "educational" usage will continue to be free. One of the Autodesk
> honchos broadcast assurances recently that if person A makes a design
> with Autodesk-Eagle using the free version, then person B goes to sell
> work based on the PCB design, Autodesk would not go after person A. To
> get four layer support costs $500/year, which is of course entirely
> indigestible to many reading this.
>
> I've been puttering around with KiCad for a few months and did one
> completely trivial board with it so far where the Eagle size limit
> required an alternative. But KiCad has no autorouter and I have to ask
> myself how many hours I'm willing to spend manually redoing a board with
> push and shove after a change when, with an autorouter, I can get a 90%
> solution in seconds, tweak placements, rinse and repeat, and greatly
> minimize manual steps. I once bootstrapped a simple assembler in machine
> code as a way to avoid spending so much time writing machine code: the
> glory of the harder road is greatly overrated!
>
> But then there's four layer support and the $500/year cost of using
> Autodesk-Eagle to use that. Where I sit this moment I'm expecting to
> buckle down and get past a lot more of the KiCad learning curve while
> coughing up $100 for Autodesk for the next year.
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 17:21:24 +0000
> From: Jesse Griggs <jesse.griggs at outlook.com>
> To: Pete Soper <pete at soper.us>
> Cc: "triembed at triembed.org" <triembed at triembed.org>
> Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Eagle now subscription-only
> Message-ID: <0C86F796-6AFA-48BA-8CE8-DF9D19A89E8D at outlook.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> I?m in the process of putting together a petition document that I want to
> widely distribute in an effort to get Autodesk to reconsider their user
> hostile EULA and subscription based licensing.  My plan is to request
> people to sign and date it and email it to autodeskeaglepetition at gmail.com
> (the address should be active).  If I can get enough signatures I?m going
> to formally submit them to Autodesk. If anyone wants to help or has input
> feel free to email me.
>
> I?m prepared to fail miserably at this task but if you don?t like
> something you can either complain about it or try and change it!
>
> Good day!
>
> Jesse Griggs
> jesse.griggs at outlook.com
>
>
>
> On Jan 20, 2017, at 12:01 PM, Pete Soper via TriEmbed <
> triembed at triembed.org> wrote:
>
> On 01/20/2017 08:36 AM, Alex Davis via TriEmbed wrote:
>
> Time to learn KiCad?
>
>
> http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/
>
> Free version is still free, but beyond that you'll have to rent it.
>
> So for $100 vs the earlier $69 you get 160 square centimeters, two layers
> and more schematic pages, but only for a year.  As you say, "educational"
> usage will continue to be free. One of the Autodesk honchos broadcast
> assurances recently that if person A makes a design with Autodesk-Eagle
> using the free version, then person B goes to sell work based on the PCB
> design, Autodesk would not go after person A. To get four layer support
> costs $500/year, which is of course entirely indigestible to many reading
> this.
>
> I've been puttering around with KiCad for a few months and did one
> completely trivial board with it so far where the Eagle size limit required
> an alternative. But KiCad has no autorouter and I have to ask myself how
> many hours I'm willing to spend manually redoing a board with push and
> shove after a change when, with an autorouter, I can get a 90% solution in
> seconds, tweak placements, rinse and repeat, and greatly minimize manual
> steps. I once bootstrapped a simple assembler in machine code as a way to
> avoid spending so much time writing machine code: the glory of the harder
> road is greatly overrated!
>
> But then there's four layer support and the $500/year cost of using
> Autodesk-Eagle to use that. Where I sit this moment I'm expecting to buckle
> down and get past a lot more of the KiCad learning curve while coughing up
> $100 for Autodesk for the next year.
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Triangle, NC Embedded Computing mailing list
> TriEmbed at triembed.org
> http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org
> TriEmbed web site: http://TriEmbed.org <http://triembed.org/>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 12:24:17 -0500
> From: Brian <triembed at undecidedgames.net>
> To: triembed at triembed.org
> Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Eagle now subscription-only
> Message-ID: <588247C1.5010600 at undecidedgames.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> On 01/20/2017 12:01 PM, Pete Soper via TriEmbed wrote:
> Where I sit this moment I'm expecting to
>
> buckle down and get past a lot more of the KiCad learning curve while
> coughing up $100 for Autodesk for the next year.
>
>
> Don't cough up for Eagle.  If you keep Eagle around, you'll be tempted
> to just use it each time you run into a hiccup with KiCAD.  Just grit
> your teeth and plow through the KiCAD curve.
>
> Maybe my boards are simpler than yours, but I've always had much better
> luck (and been much more pleased with the results) routing entirely by
> hand.  Maybe that's just a matter of me not knowing how to set up the
> autorouter to get the best results.
>
> Anyhoo, I made the switch to KiCAD a year or two ago, when I developed
> some designs that simply could not be routed effectively in two layers.
>  The scramble up the KiCAD learning curve was painful, but now that
> I've got my head around it, I haven't looked back.  Plus I can sell my
> work if I want to, and I've already done some tinkering with the KiCAD
> source to add RDBMS component and footprint libraries.
>
> Go get 'em!
>
> -B
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of TriEmbed Digest, Vol 44, Issue 18
> ****************************************
>
>
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>
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