[TriEmbed] TriEmbed Digest, Vol 44, Issue 18

Sat Jan 21 08:14:34 CST 2017

Glen, 

Great points and important because it is exactly the folks who learn, adopt and contribute to open source tools like KiCad that will push Autodesk to improve EAGLE.  

Remember Internet Explorer before Firefox came along?  Both products are as good as they are today because of competition.  There is one other difference though - and this could be a bit troubling.  You can have a number of open source browsers because the web pages you are browsing conform to standards (HTML, CSS, etc).  This commercial / open source model does not work as well without standards as we saw with M$ Office versus Open Office.  At some point, as you mentioned below, everyone uses a tool like M$ Office because everyone is using M$ Office.  At that point, the market share of all the competitors drops considerably or is pushed to a niche market (like education).  Then M$ can charge what they want and innovate only if it is convenience (“ribbon bar” anyone).

I wonder whether the community and the marketplace should start to push for more consistent adoption of a single, well defined standard for electronic CAD programs like Gerber x2 <https://www.ucamco.com/files/downloads/file/81/the_gerber_file_format_specification.pdf?faff23f7ac91476077eaee2375727ec3>.  This could enable an industry with many choices of CAD programs with all having the same access to footprints, design rules, automated workflow and manufacturing.  Perhaps it is a community push for broad adoption of a standard that will have the biggest impact.  This outcome will ensure a market that is competitive enough to avoid the abuses voiced by the mafia man in your note.

After all, it is choice and competition that will bring makers like us the best tools to build cool stuff.

Chip

> On Jan 20, 2017, at 4:20 PM, Glen Smith <mrglenasmith at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> I whole-heartedly agree with your closing statement Chip. "Each and every year they will need to earn my business." As we move into the two competing models, "software as a service" with rental agreement and yearly fee, versus open source "Free" software, there needs to be a VERY compelling reason for me to part with my cash. The fact that IBM, Autodesk and Microsoft can get away with it is due in large part to their status as 500 pound gorillas in their respective silos. As an end user, it leaves me feeling taken advantage of rather than an enthusiastic unpaid salesman for software that I believe in.
> 
> I am proficient in a very limited area of AutoCAD since I use it daily at work, however, in my role as a mentor at The Forge, I encourage students to learn any of the free CAD packages over AutoCAD. We use Google Docs, Sheets, and the various other office tools there as well, rather than any of the M$ Office Suite.
> 
> I understand that software development takes resources. I still feel like I'm dealing with organized crime when I'm told:
> [stereotypical mafia voice]
> We gots this great software, you can rent it for a great deal, ya know, yearly like, so we can UPdate it and keep it SECURE, ya wouldn't want your software to not be secure wouldja? It'd be a terrible thing if your computer got, I dunno, INFECTED or sump'in, wouldn' it? Just you give us your credit card number and we'll keep things updated and secure, and nobody gets hurt, right? 
> [/stereotypical mafia voice]
> 
> I've been wanting to learn either Eagle or KiCad for a while, the decision just got easier for me. Now I just have to actually do it.
> 
> Glen
> 
> On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:28 PM Chip McClelland via TriEmbed <triembed at triembed.org <mailto:triembed at triembed.org>> wrote:
> All, 
> 
> I think there are two issues in the responses I have read so far.
> 
> 1) EAGLE versus KiCad - This is one of these debates like Mac vs. PC where each side is convinced of their superiority.  Like that debate, I don’t think there is one right answer.  It comes down to how you like to work.  For me, I prefer the EAGLE workflow with the tightly coupled and synchronized schematic and layout views.  I am not saying this is better, it is just better for me.  The recent announcement seems to bring some great new features with more and more frequent updates promised.  
> 
> 2) Rent versus own - My day job is selling software for IBM and, I can assure you that it is not just Autodesk that is moving to the rental model.  Let’s take the Standard profile of $15/month and compare to some other rental models that now exist: Microsoft 365 - $6.99/month, Acrobat Document Cloud - $14.99/mo, Autocad Fusion 360 - $40/month, Adobe Photoshop Creative Cloud (single app) $19.99 /month.  Like it or not, the software industry is moving to this model.  Whether it is worth $15/month is entirely up to you and how much you use this tool.  Like Pete, I consider the value of my time with auto routing, better routing tools and a broad range of footprints / designs available as EAGLE libraries. 
> 
> I think I will give EAGLE a shot but one downside for Autodesk in this model.  Each and every year, they will need to earn my business.  With the rate of Ki-Cad improvement, they had better deliver on their promises.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Chip
> 
> 
>> On Jan 20, 2017, at 1:00 PM, triembed-request at triembed.org <mailto:triembed-request at triembed.org> wrote:
>> 
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>> 
>> Today's Topics:
>> 
>>   1. Eagle now subscription-only (Alex Davis)
>>   2. Re: Eagle now subscription-only (Pete Soper)
>>   3. Re: Eagle now subscription-only (Jesse Griggs)
>>   4. Re: Eagle now subscription-only (Brian)
>> 
>> 
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 1
>> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:36:42 -0500
>> From: Alex Davis <alexd at matrixwide.com <mailto:alexd at matrixwide.com>>
>> To: triembed at triembed.org <mailto:triembed at triembed.org>
>> Subject: [TriEmbed] Eagle now subscription-only
>> Message-ID:
>> 	<1484919402.2703977.854031072.1BFDED53 at webmail.messagingengine.com <mailto:1484919402.2703977.854031072.1BFDED53 at webmail.messagingengine.com>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>> 
>> Time to learn KiCad?
>> 
>> http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/ <http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/>
>> 
>> Free version is still free, but beyond that you'll have to rent it.
>> 
>> -- 
>> "The theater of noise is proof of our potential."
>> |\ |  (?  \/ |?\  |V| |\ ?|? |?) | \/ | | | |?\ (?   /?  /\ |V|
>> |-||_ (_  /\ |_/ @| | |-| |  | \ | /\ |^| | |_/ (_ . \_  \/ | |
>> 
>> You won't find me on Facebook.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 2
>> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 12:01:14 -0500
>> From: Pete Soper <pete at soper.us <mailto:pete at soper.us>>
>> To: triembed at triembed.org <mailto:triembed at triembed.org>
>> Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Eagle now subscription-only
>> Message-ID: <bfb5518c-cbcc-a2be-7e9e-8dce2f709e99 at soper.us <mailto:bfb5518c-cbcc-a2be-7e9e-8dce2f709e99 at soper.us>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>> 
>> On 01/20/2017 08:36 AM, Alex Davis via TriEmbed wrote:
>>> Time to learn KiCad?
>>> 
>>> http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/ <http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/>
>>> 
>>> Free version is still free, but beyond that you'll have to rent it.
>>> 
>> So for $100 vs the earlier $69 you get 160 square centimeters, two 
>> layers and more schematic pages, but only for a year.  As you say, 
>> "educational" usage will continue to be free. One of the Autodesk 
>> honchos broadcast assurances recently that if person A makes a design 
>> with Autodesk-Eagle using the free version, then person B goes to sell 
>> work based on the PCB design, Autodesk would not go after person A. To 
>> get four layer support costs $500/year, which is of course entirely 
>> indigestible to many reading this.
>> 
>> I've been puttering around with KiCad for a few months and did one 
>> completely trivial board with it so far where the Eagle size limit 
>> required an alternative. But KiCad has no autorouter and I have to ask 
>> myself how many hours I'm willing to spend manually redoing a board with 
>> push and shove after a change when, with an autorouter, I can get a 90% 
>> solution in seconds, tweak placements, rinse and repeat, and greatly 
>> minimize manual steps. I once bootstrapped a simple assembler in machine 
>> code as a way to avoid spending so much time writing machine code: the 
>> glory of the harder road is greatly overrated!
>> 
>> But then there's four layer support and the $500/year cost of using 
>> Autodesk-Eagle to use that. Where I sit this moment I'm expecting to 
>> buckle down and get past a lot more of the KiCad learning curve while 
>> coughing up $100 for Autodesk for the next year.
>> 
>> -Pete
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 17:21:24 +0000
>> From: Jesse Griggs <jesse.griggs at outlook.com <mailto:jesse.griggs at outlook.com>>
>> To: Pete Soper <pete at soper.us <mailto:pete at soper.us>>
>> Cc: "triembed at triembed.org <mailto:triembed at triembed.org>" <triembed at triembed.org <mailto:triembed at triembed.org>>
>> Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Eagle now subscription-only
>> Message-ID: <0C86F796-6AFA-48BA-8CE8-DF9D19A89E8D at outlook.com <mailto:0C86F796-6AFA-48BA-8CE8-DF9D19A89E8D at outlook.com>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>> 
>> I?m in the process of putting together a petition document that I want to widely distribute in an effort to get Autodesk to reconsider their user hostile EULA and subscription based licensing.  My plan is to request people to sign and date it and email it to autodeskeaglepetition at gmail.com <mailto:autodeskeaglepetition at gmail.com> (the address should be active).  If I can get enough signatures I?m going to formally submit them to Autodesk. If anyone wants to help or has input feel free to email me.
>> 
>> I?m prepared to fail miserably at this task but if you don?t like something you can either complain about it or try and change it!
>> 
>> Good day!
>> 
>> Jesse Griggs
>> jesse.griggs at outlook.com <mailto:jesse.griggs at outlook.com>
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jan 20, 2017, at 12:01 PM, Pete Soper via TriEmbed <triembed at triembed.org <mailto:triembed at triembed.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> On 01/20/2017 08:36 AM, Alex Davis via TriEmbed wrote:
>>> Time to learn KiCad?
>>> 
>>> http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/ <http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/>
>>> 
>>> Free version is still free, but beyond that you'll have to rent it.
>>> 
>> So for $100 vs the earlier $69 you get 160 square centimeters, two layers and more schematic pages, but only for a year.  As you say, "educational" usage will continue to be free. One of the Autodesk honchos broadcast assurances recently that if person A makes a design with Autodesk-Eagle using the free version, then person B goes to sell work based on the PCB design, Autodesk would not go after person A. To get four layer support costs $500/year, which is of course entirely indigestible to many reading this.
>> 
>> I've been puttering around with KiCad for a few months and did one completely trivial board with it so far where the Eagle size limit required an alternative. But KiCad has no autorouter and I have to ask myself how many hours I'm willing to spend manually redoing a board with push and shove after a change when, with an autorouter, I can get a 90% solution in seconds, tweak placements, rinse and repeat, and greatly minimize manual steps. I once bootstrapped a simple assembler in machine code as a way to avoid spending so much time writing machine code: the glory of the harder road is greatly overrated!
>> 
>> But then there's four layer support and the $500/year cost of using Autodesk-Eagle to use that. Where I sit this moment I'm expecting to buckle down and get past a lot more of the KiCad learning curve while coughing up $100 for Autodesk for the next year.
>> 
>> -Pete
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Message: 4
>> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 12:24:17 -0500
>> From: Brian <triembed at undecidedgames.net <mailto:triembed at undecidedgames.net>>
>> To: triembed at triembed.org <mailto:triembed at triembed.org>
>> Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Eagle now subscription-only
>> Message-ID: <588247C1.5010600 at undecidedgames.net <mailto:588247C1.5010600 at undecidedgames.net>>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>> 
>> On 01/20/2017 12:01 PM, Pete Soper via TriEmbed wrote:
>> Where I sit this moment I'm expecting to
>>> buckle down and get past a lot more of the KiCad learning curve while
>>> coughing up $100 for Autodesk for the next year.
>>> 
>> 
>> Don't cough up for Eagle.  If you keep Eagle around, you'll be tempted 
>> to just use it each time you run into a hiccup with KiCAD.  Just grit 
>> your teeth and plow through the KiCAD curve.
>> 
>> Maybe my boards are simpler than yours, but I've always had much better 
>> luck (and been much more pleased with the results) routing entirely by 
>> hand.  Maybe that's just a matter of me not knowing how to set up the 
>> autorouter to get the best results.
>> 
>> Anyhoo, I made the switch to KiCAD a year or two ago, when I developed 
>> some designs that simply could not be routed effectively in two layers. 
>>  The scramble up the KiCAD learning curve was painful, but now that 
>> I've got my head around it, I haven't looked back.  Plus I can sell my 
>> work if I want to, and I've already done some tinkering with the KiCAD 
>> source to add RDBMS component and footprint libraries.
>> 
>> Go get 'em!
>> 
>> -B
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> Subject: Digest Footer
>> 
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>> ------------------------------
>> 
>> End of TriEmbed Digest, Vol 44, Issue 18
>> ****************************************
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