[TriEmbed] TriEmbed Digest, Vol 44, Issue 18

Fri Jan 20 15:20:56 CST 2017

I whole-heartedly agree with your closing statement Chip. "Each and every
year they will need to earn my business." As we move into the two competing
models, "software as a service" with rental agreement and yearly fee,
versus open source "Free" software, there needs to be a VERY compelling
reason for me to part with my cash. The fact that IBM, Autodesk and
Microsoft can get away with it is due in large part to their status as 500
pound gorillas in their respective silos. As an end user, it leaves me
feeling taken advantage of rather than an enthusiastic unpaid salesman for
software that I believe in.

I am proficient in a very limited area of AutoCAD since I use it daily at
work, however, in my role as a mentor at The Forge, I encourage students to
learn any of the free CAD packages over AutoCAD. We use Google Docs,
Sheets, and the various other office tools there as well, rather than any
of the M$ Office Suite.

I understand that software development takes resources. I still feel like
I'm dealing with organized crime when I'm told:
[stereotypical mafia voice]
We gots this great software, you can rent it for a great deal, ya know,
yearly like, so we can UPdate it and keep it SECURE, ya wouldn't want your
software to not be secure wouldja? It'd be a terrible thing if your
computer got, I dunno, INFECTED or sump'in, wouldn' it? Just you give us
your credit card number and we'll keep things updated and secure, and
nobody gets hurt, right?
[/stereotypical mafia voice]

I've been wanting to learn either Eagle or KiCad for a while, the decision
just got easier for me. Now I just have to actually do it.

Glen

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:28 PM Chip McClelland via TriEmbed <
triembed at triembed.org> wrote:

> All,
>
> I think there are two issues in the responses I have read so far.
>
> 1) EAGLE versus KiCad - This is one of these debates like Mac vs. PC where
> each side is convinced of their superiority.  Like that debate, I don’t
> think there is one right answer.  It comes down to how you like to work.
> For me, I prefer the EAGLE workflow with the tightly coupled and
> synchronized schematic and layout views.  I am not saying this is better,
> it is just better for me.  The recent announcement seems to bring some
> great new features with more and more frequent updates promised.
>
> 2) Rent versus own - My day job is selling software for IBM and, I can
> assure you that it is not just Autodesk that is moving to the rental
> model.  Let’s take the Standard profile of $15/month and compare to some
> other rental models that now exist: Microsoft 365 - $6.99/month, Acrobat
> Document Cloud - $14.99/mo, Autocad Fusion 360 - $40/month, Adobe Photoshop
> Creative Cloud (single app) $19.99 /month.  Like it or not, the software
> industry is moving to this model.  Whether it is worth $15/month is
> entirely up to you and how much you use this tool.  Like Pete, I consider
> the value of my time with auto routing, better routing tools and a broad
> range of footprints / designs available as EAGLE libraries.
>
> I think I will give EAGLE a shot but one downside for Autodesk in this
> model.  *Each and every year, they will need to earn my business.*  With
> the rate of Ki-Cad improvement, they had better deliver on their promises.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Chip
>
>
> On Jan 20, 2017, at 1:00 PM, triembed-request at triembed.org wrote:
>
> Send TriEmbed mailing list submissions to
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>
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Eagle now subscription-only (Alex Davis)
>   2. Re: Eagle now subscription-only (Pete Soper)
>   3. Re: Eagle now subscription-only (Jesse Griggs)
>   4. Re: Eagle now subscription-only (Brian)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 08:36:42 -0500
> From: Alex Davis <alexd at matrixwide.com>
> To: triembed at triembed.org
> Subject: [TriEmbed] Eagle now subscription-only
> Message-ID:
> <1484919402.2703977.854031072.1BFDED53 at webmail.messagingengine.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Time to learn KiCad?
>
>
> http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/
>
> Free version is still free, but beyond that you'll have to rent it.
>
> --
> "The theater of noise is proof of our potential."
> |\ |  (?  \/ |?\  |V| |\ ?|? |?) | \/ | | | |?\ (?   /?  /\ |V|
> |-||_ (_  /\ |_/ @| | |-| |  | \ | /\ |^| | |_/ (_ . \_  \/ | |
>
> You won't find me on Facebook.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 12:01:14 -0500
> From: Pete Soper <pete at soper.us>
> To: triembed at triembed.org
> Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Eagle now subscription-only
> Message-ID: <bfb5518c-cbcc-a2be-7e9e-8dce2f709e99 at soper.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
>
> On 01/20/2017 08:36 AM, Alex Davis via TriEmbed wrote:
>
> Time to learn KiCad?
>
>
> http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/
>
> Free version is still free, but beyond that you'll have to rent it.
>
> So for $100 vs the earlier $69 you get 160 square centimeters, two
> layers and more schematic pages, but only for a year.  As you say,
> "educational" usage will continue to be free. One of the Autodesk
> honchos broadcast assurances recently that if person A makes a design
> with Autodesk-Eagle using the free version, then person B goes to sell
> work based on the PCB design, Autodesk would not go after person A. To
> get four layer support costs $500/year, which is of course entirely
> indigestible to many reading this.
>
> I've been puttering around with KiCad for a few months and did one
> completely trivial board with it so far where the Eagle size limit
> required an alternative. But KiCad has no autorouter and I have to ask
> myself how many hours I'm willing to spend manually redoing a board with
> push and shove after a change when, with an autorouter, I can get a 90%
> solution in seconds, tweak placements, rinse and repeat, and greatly
> minimize manual steps. I once bootstrapped a simple assembler in machine
> code as a way to avoid spending so much time writing machine code: the
> glory of the harder road is greatly overrated!
>
> But then there's four layer support and the $500/year cost of using
> Autodesk-Eagle to use that. Where I sit this moment I'm expecting to
> buckle down and get past a lot more of the KiCad learning curve while
> coughing up $100 for Autodesk for the next year.
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 17:21:24 +0000
> From: Jesse Griggs <jesse.griggs at outlook.com>
> To: Pete Soper <pete at soper.us>
> Cc: "triembed at triembed.org" <triembed at triembed.org>
> Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Eagle now subscription-only
> Message-ID: <0C86F796-6AFA-48BA-8CE8-DF9D19A89E8D at outlook.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
>
> I?m in the process of putting together a petition document that I want to
> widely distribute in an effort to get Autodesk to reconsider their user
> hostile EULA and subscription based licensing.  My plan is to request
> people to sign and date it and email it to autodeskeaglepetition at gmail.com
> (the address should be active).  If I can get enough signatures I?m going
> to formally submit them to Autodesk. If anyone wants to help or has input
> feel free to email me.
>
> I?m prepared to fail miserably at this task but if you don?t like
> something you can either complain about it or try and change it!
>
> Good day!
>
> Jesse Griggs
> jesse.griggs at outlook.com
>
>
>
> On Jan 20, 2017, at 12:01 PM, Pete Soper via TriEmbed <
> triembed at triembed.org> wrote:
>
> On 01/20/2017 08:36 AM, Alex Davis via TriEmbed wrote:
>
> Time to learn KiCad?
>
>
> http://hackaday.com/2017/01/19/autodesk-moves-eagle-to-subscription-only-pricing/
>
> Free version is still free, but beyond that you'll have to rent it.
>
> So for $100 vs the earlier $69 you get 160 square centimeters, two layers
> and more schematic pages, but only for a year.  As you say, "educational"
> usage will continue to be free. One of the Autodesk honchos broadcast
> assurances recently that if person A makes a design with Autodesk-Eagle
> using the free version, then person B goes to sell work based on the PCB
> design, Autodesk would not go after person A. To get four layer support
> costs $500/year, which is of course entirely indigestible to many reading
> this.
>
> I've been puttering around with KiCad for a few months and did one
> completely trivial board with it so far where the Eagle size limit required
> an alternative. But KiCad has no autorouter and I have to ask myself how
> many hours I'm willing to spend manually redoing a board with push and
> shove after a change when, with an autorouter, I can get a 90% solution in
> seconds, tweak placements, rinse and repeat, and greatly minimize manual
> steps. I once bootstrapped a simple assembler in machine code as a way to
> avoid spending so much time writing machine code: the glory of the harder
> road is greatly overrated!
>
> But then there's four layer support and the $500/year cost of using
> Autodesk-Eagle to use that. Where I sit this moment I'm expecting to buckle
> down and get past a lot more of the KiCad learning curve while coughing up
> $100 for Autodesk for the next year.
>
> -Pete
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Triangle, NC Embedded Computing mailing list
> TriEmbed at triembed.org
> http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org
> TriEmbed web site: http://TriEmbed.org
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2017 12:24:17 -0500
> From: Brian <triembed at undecidedgames.net>
> To: triembed at triembed.org
> Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Eagle now subscription-only
> Message-ID: <588247C1.5010600 at undecidedgames.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> On 01/20/2017 12:01 PM, Pete Soper via TriEmbed wrote:
> Where I sit this moment I'm expecting to
>
> buckle down and get past a lot more of the KiCad learning curve while
> coughing up $100 for Autodesk for the next year.
>
>
> Don't cough up for Eagle.  If you keep Eagle around, you'll be tempted
> to just use it each time you run into a hiccup with KiCAD.  Just grit
> your teeth and plow through the KiCAD curve.
>
> Maybe my boards are simpler than yours, but I've always had much better
> luck (and been much more pleased with the results) routing entirely by
> hand.  Maybe that's just a matter of me not knowing how to set up the
> autorouter to get the best results.
>
> Anyhoo, I made the switch to KiCAD a year or two ago, when I developed
> some designs that simply could not be routed effectively in two layers.
>  The scramble up the KiCAD learning curve was painful, but now that
> I've got my head around it, I haven't looked back.  Plus I can sell my
> work if I want to, and I've already done some tinkering with the KiCAD
> source to add RDBMS component and footprint libraries.
>
> Go get 'em!
>
> -B
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of TriEmbed Digest, Vol 44, Issue 18
> ****************************************
>
>
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