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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple style='tab-interval:.5in;word-wrap:break-word'><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>Thanks Trampas- I experimented a lot over the years too but have slowed down somewhat in my dotage.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I worked for Maxim from NC and went out west monthly- they had the real stuff ++ but monthly was too long.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I was hacking around mostly with RF stuff done on an LPKF CNC board grinder which I still use- bought new in the mid 90’s and upgraded a few times.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>RF requires so much iteration that even a Chinese vendor doesn’t give the kind of turnaround require for a good workflow.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>A few boards a day is common.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>The boards tend to be simple, playing with some sub-circuit, etc.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Sometimes on exotic substrates like Rogers- hard to get quick turn.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span><span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>I paid $10k for this LPKF and probably never gotten my money out of it even boards were a few hundred bucks.<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>Its still fun- instant gratification.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-no-proof:yes'>Regards,<br>John M. Wettroth<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal style='mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto'><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-no-proof:yes'>E: jwet@mindspring.com<br>M: </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji",sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji";mso-bidi-font-family:"Segoe UI Emoji";mso-no-proof:yes'>(</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";mso-no-proof:yes'>919) 349-9875 <br>H:<span style='mso-spacerun:yes'> </span>(984) 329-5420<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'>From:</span></b><span style='mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"'> TriEmbed <triembed-bounces@triembed.org> <b>On Behalf Of </b>Trampas Stern via TriEmbed<br><b>Sent:</b> Sunday, June 4, 2023 7:14 PM<br><b>To:</b> Pete soper <pete@soper.us><br><b>Cc:</b> TriEmbed <triembed@triembed.org><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [TriEmbed] a full custom biz card that runs Linux<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>I do SMT boards all the time. I order PCBs with stainless stencils from JLCPCB, <a href="http://www.jlcpcb.com">www.jlcpcb.com</a>. I normally order 4-6 layer double sided boards. 10 boards with two stencils are around $50. Then shipping to US is $50. I normally get boards in about 7-10 days <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I use a stencil printer from NeoDen, then use Manncorp pick and place machine to place the 'jelly bean' parts. Then hand place other parts.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>After which I use a custom made reflow oven.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>I have tried countless stencil printers and reflow methods and ovens, and soldering irons,etc. As such if anyone has questions I can help answer them.<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal>Trampas<o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><div><div><p class=MsoNormal>On Sun, Jun 4, 2023, 4:43 PM Pete soper via TriEmbed <<a href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org">triembed@triembed.org</a>> wrote:<o:p></o:p></p></div><blockquote style='border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;mso-border-left-alt:solid #CCCCCC .75pt;padding:0in 0in 0in 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0in'><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'>Wow, John. It never occurred to me to turn solder paste into "solder <br>paint"! Does that really work for you for .5mm centered QFNs?<br><br>Pete<br><br>On 6/4/23 14:01, John Wettroth wrote:<br>> I think everyone experiments with SMT assembly to get to something that works. I used a little Chinese clone pneumatic dispenser that pushed out paste through a blunt needle- its fine for small board if you can pull an airline into your lab. The only designator is 983A, it must be a copy of something made by Hakko or Plato, etc.- I still use it but its only suited for really simple boards. Hitting pads on a 300 pin BGA or a few hundred R's and C's is no fun. Metal stencils are the way to go, they work so well- plastic does work but past can go under them pretty easily. The only problem I have now is keeping solder paste from going bad and turning to concrete. I have a little beer fridge in my lab and keep it in there which help. I bring it up to room temp and if its too stiff, add a little Isopropyl- I don't go strictly by the expire dates- I can use it for 2 years or so though it might expire at 6 mos. You can also put a little bit of liquid flux in it to liven it up. It fails somewhat gracefully, you can do a test run and see if it will reflow without committing a bunch of boards.<br>><br>> I guess the original point of that post is the guy built a Linux box on a biz car- that's pretty cool. I jumped to your stencil comment.<br>><br>> Regards,<br>> John M. Wettroth<br>> E: <a href="mailto:jwet@mindspring.com" target="_blank">jwet@mindspring.com</a><br>> M: (919) 349-9875<br>> H: (984) 329-5420<br>><br>> -----Original Message-----<br>> From: TriEmbed <<a href="mailto:triembed-bounces@triembed.org" target="_blank">triembed-bounces@triembed.org</a>> On Behalf Of Pete soper via TriEmbed<br>> Sent: Sunday, June 4, 2023 12:40 PM<br>> To: <a href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org" target="_blank">triembed@triembed.org</a><br>> Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] a full custom biz card that runs Linux<br>><br>> About 10 years ago OSH Stencils started out selling stencils made of<br>> kapton. The kapton came on rolls and there was curvature in the stencils<br>> such that 80% of the hassle of applying paste was holding the stencil<br>> down as flat as possible. For fine pitch parts it was a serious PITA. I<br>> was told kapton was used because it would cut cleanly. After Matt<br>> (owner) had shipped a zillion kapton stencils he could afford a serious<br>> laser cutter to offer stainless steel. For me this was a cause for major<br>> celebration. The time with the kapton was when stainless steel stencils<br>> from other sources were expensive. Now they are cheap, as you noted<br>> John. A lot of the stencils I get from Matt are $10. A hobbyist might<br>> flinch at this cost, but IMO it's a small price to pay for the ability<br>> to actually assemble a board vs imagining that one can do it by manually<br>> putting paste to board. One can't actually manually put paste to board<br>> reliably for small parts. :-) Again, my focus is on small pitch parts as<br>> these have become a fact of life and avoiding them imposes a very heavy<br>> constraint on design. I'm preparing to make a flexible board for a<br>> sensor that has 10 pads around it's sides underneath and is 1.8x2.0mm<br>> overall. That takes a good stencil. :-)<br>><br>> A plastic that is dead flat to begin with and that doesn't go bonkers<br>> with a laser (i.e. that can be cut cleanly without the edges swelling)<br>> would IMO make for a cottage industry for somebody because they could<br>> beat the stainless steel prices and perhaps offer comparable quality<br>> results. But I'd have to see such a plastic stencil under my microscope<br>> to be convinced that it can actually compete with stainless steel. My<br>> 'scope has a very good camera and I'd be happy to take pictures to share<br>> with the group so we could see what the apertures look like close up.<br>> ("Aperture" is the 50 cent term for the mostly square corner holes in a<br>> stencil.)<br>><br>> Pete<br>><br>> On 6/4/23 08:09, John Wettroth via TriEmbed wrote:<br>>> I've played with this with standard transparency film and a little 40w Chinese<br>>> laser- takes a bit of tuning to get it all correct but works. Stencils are<br>>> really cheap when you order a board if you remember.<br>>><br>>> Regards,<br>>> John M. Wettroth<br>>> E: <a href="mailto:jwet@mindspring.com" target="_blank">jwet@mindspring.com</a><br>>> M: (919) 349-9875<br>>> H: (984) 329-5420<br>>><br>>> -----Original Message-----<br>>> From: TriEmbed <<a href="mailto:triembed-bounces@triembed.org" target="_blank">triembed-bounces@triembed.org</a>> On Behalf Of Pete soper via<br>>> TriEmbed<br>>> Sent: Saturday, June 3, 2023 1:51 PM<br>>> To: Triangle Embedded Interest Group <<a href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org" target="_blank">triembed@triembed.org</a>><br>>> Subject: [TriEmbed] a full custom biz card that runs Linux<br>>><br>>> He made his solder stencil with a laser cutter and the BOM runs around $3.<br>>><br>>> <a href="https://www.thirtythreeforty.net/posts/2019/12/my-business-card-runs-linux/" target="_blank">https://www.thirtythreeforty.net/posts/2019/12/my-business-card-runs-linux/</a><br>>><br>>><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list<br>>><br>>> To post message: <a href="mailto:TriEmbed@triembed.org" target="_blank">TriEmbed@triembed.org</a><br>>> List info: <a href="http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org" target="_blank">http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org</a><br>>> TriEmbed web site: <a href="https://TriEmbed.org" target="_blank">https://TriEmbed.org</a><br>>> To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message:<br>>> mailto:<a href="mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed@bitser.net" target="_blank">unsubscribe-TriEmbed@bitser.net</a>?subject=unsubscribe<br>>> Searchable email archive available at<br>>> <a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed@triembed.org/" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed@triembed.org/</a><br>>><br>>><br>>> _______________________________________________<br>>> Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list<br>>><br>>> To post message: <a href="mailto:TriEmbed@triembed.org" target="_blank">TriEmbed@triembed.org</a><br>>> List info: <a href="http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org" target="_blank">http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org</a><br>>> TriEmbed web site: <a href="https://TriEmbed.org" target="_blank">https://TriEmbed.org</a><br>>> To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto:<a href="mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed@bitser.net" target="_blank">unsubscribe-TriEmbed@bitser.net</a>?subject=unsubscribe<br>>> Searchable email archive available at <a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed@triembed.org/" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed@triembed.org/</a><br>>><br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list<br>><br>> To post message: <a href="mailto:TriEmbed@triembed.org" target="_blank">TriEmbed@triembed.org</a><br>> List info: <a href="http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org" target="_blank">http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org</a><br>> TriEmbed web site: <a href="https://TriEmbed.org" target="_blank">https://TriEmbed.org</a><br>> To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto:<a href="mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed@bitser.net" target="_blank">unsubscribe-TriEmbed@bitser.net</a>?subject=unsubscribe<br>> Searchable email archive available at <a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed@triembed.org/" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed@triembed.org/</a><br>><br>><br>_______________________________________________<br>Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list<br><br>To post message: <a href="mailto:TriEmbed@triembed.org" target="_blank">TriEmbed@triembed.org</a><br>List info: <a href="http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org" target="_blank">http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org</a><br>TriEmbed web site: <a href="https://TriEmbed.org" target="_blank">https://TriEmbed.org</a><br>To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto:<a href="mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed@bitser.net" target="_blank">unsubscribe-TriEmbed@bitser.net</a>?subject=unsubscribe<br>Searchable email archive available at <a href="https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed@triembed.org/" target="_blank">https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed@triembed.org/</a><o:p></o:p></p></blockquote></div></div></body></html>