<div dir="ltr">You have a huge inductor in the motor, which will put huge transient spikes everywhere, and that includes the places you don't want them. I am not sure you can overdo the isolation. Al the rules apply single-point grounding, Pi networks of L's and C's are a good start. An isolated DC-DC converter would not be overkill. I am sure you mention it but what is the bus voltage out of the battery. <div><br></div><div>Nick</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:46 AM Pete Soper via TriEmbed <<a href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org">triembed@triembed.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<p>Thanks for sharing, this, John. The other day trying to gauge how
much Paul's golf cart battery would be drained with a linear vs
switching regulator a very quick glance of ESP32 stuff gave a
guestimate of about 4.7V*50mA (but I guessed this wasted power
wasn't relevant to Paul). But I hadn't thought at all about peak
currents as they relate to regulator choice, and more importantly
how much time is spent at those higher currents.<br>
</p>
<p>But I'm writing to wonder how much help decoupling the regulator
and minimizing inductance might help with transient scenarios like
you describe below? Or would the cap dumping current just fake out
the regulator and simply make the droop happen a little later?<br>
</p>
<p>-Pete<br>
</p>
<div>On 11/19/20 8:53 AM, John Wettroth via
TriEmbed wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>That's a nice
part Nick. Like a lot of modern parts on small process, its
kind of designed around one LiIon cell operation. I like
the "green mode" stuff. LTC and Maxim make some parts like
that. The difficulty with switchover type parts is when you
have a big load transient (eg- a transmit burst). If the
part is in the low quiescent mode, it can droop and cause
havoc.I noticed it has a forced green mode pin which could
alleviate this with some thought in software. A lot of
times, its easier to have a seperate regulator for the high
current case or if they can be split up.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>I didn't
realize that these ESP devices require so much current, I've
only played with one on the bench pretty casually. For the
8v input case, you really might want to consider a buck
converter unless the high current only runs very
intermittently. The power wasted in a linear could create
potential heat problems. You're talking about getting rid
of 1.5 watts from your 8v source.</span></font></div>
<div> </div>
<div><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">I agree with Nick on those DFN packages-
awful, you're into hot air or oven reflow. I like parts
that come in a variety of packages including through hole,
this is getting rare these days.</font></span></div>
<p><font size="2">Regards,<br>
John M. Wettroth<br>
(984) 329-5420 (home)<br>
(919) 349-9875 (cell<span>)</span></font></p>
<br>
<div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" align="left">
<hr>
<font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Nick Edgington
[<a href="mailto:nickedgington@edgingtonlabs.com" target="_blank">mailto:nickedgington@edgingtonlabs.com</a>] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 18, 2020 6:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Josh Wyatt<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:jwet@mindspring.com" target="_blank">jwet@mindspring.com</a>; TriEmbed Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TriEmbed] Powering ESP32 from an 8v golf
cart battery<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">personal I like the <a href="https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/ld39130s.pdf" target="_blank">STM <font color="#03234b"><span style="box-sizing:border-box;background-size:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><b>LD39130SJ30R</b></span></font> </a>which
is a good match for esp32 it will do 300ma with a 300mv drop the
quiescent current is a remarkable 1 µA in green mode, 45 µA in
normal mode which matched with the ULP mode on the esp32, Not a
problem with a golf cart but important for low power sensor. and
to top it of STM will send you a couple for just the shipping
cost,
<div><br>
</div>
<div> The package a somewhat of a pain.<br>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Nick</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I have a number of the regulator board I pictured
earlier should you be near Apex and want one.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>nje</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 1:17
PM Josh Wyatt via TriEmbed <<a href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org" target="_blank">triembed@triembed.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<div dir="ltr">This is awesome info John, I'm enjoying the
read.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>From personal experience, the ESP32S (and ESP8266) can
be pretty power hungry when the radios are on, and are
particularly sensitive to brownouts... I try to use
something with at least 300mA and with good, stiff caps.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks,<br>
Josh</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at
9:42 AM John Wettroth via TriEmbed <<a href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org" target="_blank">triembed@triembed.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Shane,</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">There are a ton and
its unfortunately one of these "it depends" kind
of things. But here are a few and why.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Most of the stuff I
do is pretty small, low current stuff and 2.7 or
3.3v- an 8 bit uP and a display with some RF. </font></span><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Very low
quiescent parts suitable for circuits with sleep
mode, etc. A lot of my stuff lives outside and
runs on a 12v battery so I try to shoot for -40C
operation and 16v Max vin. Temp range matters for
capacitors mostly and dropout. I buy almost
exclusively from Digikey. Their search engine and
service is amazing even if they cost a bit more.
I tend to design very low power things and like
low Iq for sleep operation. Generally very low Iq
means poor HF rejection (you need loop gain)- in
RF stuff, I'll compromise on Iq and shut the block
down, etc. I prefer newer parts, there has been
so much progress in the last 15 years,
its amazing- there is no reason to use a 7805 for
any real design- even cheap stuff. There are
better and even cheaper alternatives if you're
building more than a few hundred. At low volumes,
7805's can be awfully cheap but they're really
only designed as 60/120 Hz type regulators in a
traditional AC supply.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Some old favorites-</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Micrel (Mchip owns
Micrel linear now) MIC5203, 5205 series of BiCMOS
types. PNP pass element but controlled drop out
current. 16v 50/150 mA, Iq 1 mA max. Micrel
invented BiCMOS pretty much and its good to see
that Microchip is keeping a lot of their parts.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Microchip 1791 is a
great HV regulator- 30v max in, 70 mA out, load
dump (48V), Iq 70 uA. Microchip makes tons of
cheap analog parts these days and lot of good
linears. They acquired Telcom semi many years ago
which was a big CMOS linear company (like
Maxim). Newer CMOS stuff is good but the older
stuff is not so good- done on large processes and
traded Low Iq for performance- very slow load and
line transient recovery, no PSRR, etc.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Toko TK11625 and
TK1150, Digikey dropped Toko but I still have
a lot of these around- they're officially
obsolete but they're plentiful everywhere and
there are newer alternatives. Available
in TO-92, 100 mA, Tk71150 is 5v LDO with good
HF rejection for low noise for a post after a
switcher, Quiescent is OK at 300 uA, Seiko
makes similar BiCMOS parts, can be hard to
find these days. Microchip basically copied
these regulators to create their line and
DigiKey wants to keep Mchip happy. </font></span></font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>TI TLV1117 A
"special" very low Iq LM1117 variant, quiescent
of 100 uA. Better PSRR and dropout. Good in 3
Alkaline of 1 LiIon to 2.5v apps. Max Vin is
5.5v, only downside.</span></font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Some favorites lately
(doing low cost stuff)</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Diodes Inc AP-7381
series. Available in TO-92 option still for quick
perfboard builds and breadboard. Cheap. Very low
Quiescent, 50/150 mA variants. Digikey large
stocks always.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">ABLIC S-812Cxx
series. 1uA Iq, 10-100 mA output depend on
voltage. Quiescent useful for running a real time
clock or deep shutdown on a HV input.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Anything that Maxim
or LTC/ADI makes are invariably awesome but low
volume pricing (<10k) is awful. Real customers
pay nothing like those prices believe me. I have
odds and ends of Maxim leftovers but never have
what I need. TI has better pricing but isn't
innovating much in this area- the TLV1117 is an
exception- excellent.</font></span></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span><span></span><span></span><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">In
your Golf Cart app, what's your load current min
and max and vin min and max. Any big line or load
steps? Temp range and size could help too. Any
special operation needs like sleep?</font></span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">After
25 years in Standard Products at Maxim, I can talk
Linear IC's more than anyone cares to listen.
Take care- shoot me a private mail or call if you
have specific questions.</font></span></div>
<p><font size="2">Regards,<br>
John M. Wettroth<br>
(984) 329-5420 (home)<br>
(919) 349-9875 (cell) </font></p>
<div> </div>
<br>
<div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" align="left">
<hr> <font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Shane
Trent [mailto:<a href="mailto:shanedtrent@gmail.com" target="_blank">shanedtrent@gmail.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 17, 2020 9:57 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:jwet@mindspring.com" target="_blank">jwet@mindspring.com</a><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Pete Soper; TriEmbed Discussion<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TriEmbed] Powering ESP32 from
an 8v golf cart battery<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">John,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thank you for your breakdown on voltage
regulators. Would you mind sharing some of your
favorite part numbers in the "Modern BiCMOS LDOs"? </div>
<div><br>
Thanks!</div>
<div>Shane</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Mon, Nov 16, 2020
at 5:52 PM John Wettroth via TriEmbed <<a href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org" target="_blank">triembed@triembed.org</a>>
wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>I'll put my
2 cents in here for a few subtleties. I
defined probably 1000 different linear and
switching regulators at Maxim in my 25
years.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>Vout plus
dropout is pretty good overall. But don't
forget that dropout is defined where the
output voltage drops 100 mV. Its coming out
of regulation and all the goodness that
linears give you stops happening. You also
want to do this at max load, max output
tolerance and worst temp. The drop out for
bipolars decreases for higher temps which
helps but at very cold temps, it can grow- a
lot a very cold. This is not allways well
specified.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>There are
several classes of dropout that are driven
by the design of the ouput stage</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>Vdropout</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>2v
standard bipolar linears like the 7805 use
an NPN darlington output- nice low impedance
and easy to use.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>1v
LM1117 type bipolar linears use a Sziklai
modified darlington with an NPN follower
driven by a PNP- pretty good comprimise</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>.5v
LM2940 PNP pass element parts have low
dropout but some squirelly stability issues
at times and can have high quiescent at
dropout</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>.1v
PMOS or charge pumped NPN pass element
types that looks like a small resistance in
dropout. Quiescent can be very low.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><font color="#0000ff">.</font></font></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><font color="#0000ff"><span>Depending
on the type of regulator, there are
subtlties that happen around dropout.</span></font></font></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><font color="#0000ff"><span></span></font></font></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>Old bipolar
regulators like the 7805 have a drop out of
about 2v conservatively. The output is an
emitter follower darlington stage which is 2
vbe's (.7v each) and 2 Vce sat (about .2v
each). This is about 1.8v. Since
the output is a follower, it has a gain of 1
and are generally very well behaved with
very little thought given to bypassing and
stability. High frequency rejection is poor
and accuracy is somewhat poor.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>First
generation bipolar LDO's like the LM2940
etc, used a PNP output stage with a grounded
NPN pulling its base down. These parts have
two Vce sats in the dropout path (about
.5v). These transistors have gain on top
of the error amp gain and get unstable
without following the the bypassing
instructions closely. The output cap
becomes the dominant pole and the ESR of the
output cap has to in a specific range-
neither two small or two large. The other
annoying feature of this class is as you
approach dropout- the beta provided by the
PNP pass element goes south and they can
draw lots of current at or near dropout
trying to keep the PNP in saturation. In
low power circuits, this can cause a sort of
latching action and flatten a battery in no
time.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>The LM1117
type second gen bipolar LDO's have a NPN
follower ouput. These have the benefit of a
follower but only moderate dropout
performance. They were basically invented
to make 3.3v from 5v which a 7805 couldn't
do. Good for point of load but kind of
mediocre otherwise.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>Modern
BiCMOS LDO's generally have a PMOS pass
element and some MOS and Bipolar circuits..
These can have very low quiescent, very low
noise and the lowest dropout possible. They
are also pretty stable with most loads but
take a signicant cap on the output usually.
Something like a 10 uF ceramic. Microchip
make some good low cost parts in this
class. Probably my favorites.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>There are
all CMOS LDO's that share most of features
of the last category but don't get the low
noise and high accurancy generally.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>One other
issue is your 8v battery. The charging
voltage on a Lead Acid could be over 10V
which is a common abs max for many linears.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>My 2 cents.</span></font></div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
<div> </div>
<p><font size="2">Regards,<br>
John M. Wettroth<br>
(984) 329-5420 (home)<br>
(919) 349-9875 (cell) </font></p>
<div> </div>
<br>
<div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" align="left">
<hr> <font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b>
TriEmbed [mailto:<a href="mailto:triembed-bounces@triembed.org" target="_blank">triembed-bounces@triembed.org</a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Pete Soper via TriEmbed<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 16, 2020 10:46
AM<br>
<b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org" target="_blank">triembed@triembed.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [TriEmbed] Powering ESP32
from an 8v golf cart battery<br>
</font><br>
</div>
<p><br>
</p>
<div>On 11/15/20 10:34 PM, The MacDougals via
TriEmbed wrote:<br>
</div>
</div>
_______________________________________________<br>
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