<div dir="ltr">You have a huge inductor in the motor, which will put huge transient spikes everywhere, and that includes the places you don't want them. I am not sure you can overdo the isolation. Al the rules apply single-point grounding, Pi networks of L's and C's are a good start. An isolated DC-DC converter would not be overkill.  I am sure you mention it but what is the bus voltage out of the battery. <div><br></div><div>Nick</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Thu, Nov 19, 2020 at 10:46 AM Pete Soper via TriEmbed <<a href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org">triembed@triembed.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
  
    
  
  <div>
    <p>Thanks for sharing, this, John. The other day trying to gauge how
      much Paul's golf cart battery would be drained with a linear vs
      switching regulator a very quick glance of ESP32 stuff gave a
      guestimate of about 4.7V*50mA (but I guessed this wasted power
      wasn't relevant to Paul). But I hadn't thought at all about peak
      currents as they relate to regulator choice, and more importantly
      how much time is spent at those higher currents.<br>
    </p>
    <p>But I'm writing to wonder how much help decoupling the regulator
      and minimizing inductance might help with transient scenarios like
      you describe below? Or would the cap dumping current just fake out
      the regulator and simply make the droop happen a little later?<br>
    </p>
    <p>-Pete<br>
    </p>
    <div>On 11/19/20 8:53 AM, John Wettroth via
      TriEmbed wrote:<br>
    </div>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      
      
      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>That's a nice
            part Nick.  Like a lot of modern parts on small process, its
            kind of designed around one LiIon cell operation.  I like
            the "green mode" stuff.  LTC and Maxim make some parts like
            that.  The difficulty with switchover type parts is when you
            have a big load transient (eg- a transmit burst).  If the
            part is in the low quiescent mode, it can droop and cause
            havoc.I noticed it has a forced green mode pin which could
            alleviate this with some thought in software.  A lot of
            times, its easier to have a seperate regulator for the high
            current case or if they can be split up.</span></font></div>
      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>I didn't
            realize that these ESP devices require so much current, I've
            only played with one on the bench pretty casually.  For the
            8v input case, you really might want to consider a buck
            converter unless the high current only runs very
            intermittently.  The power wasted in a linear could create
            potential heat problems.  You're talking about getting rid
            of 1.5 watts from your 8v source.</span></font></div>
      <div> </div>
      <div><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">I agree with Nick on those DFN packages-
            awful, you're into hot air or oven reflow.  I like parts
            that come in a variety of packages including through hole,
            this is getting rare these days.</font></span></div>
      
      <p><font size="2">Regards,<br>
          John M. Wettroth<br>
          (984) 329-5420 (home)<br>
          (919) 349-9875 (cell<span>)</span></font></p>
      <br>
      <div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" align="left">
        <hr>
        <font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Nick Edgington
          [<a href="mailto:nickedgington@edgingtonlabs.com" target="_blank">mailto:nickedgington@edgingtonlabs.com</a>] <br>
          <b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, November 18, 2020 6:44 PM<br>
          <b>To:</b> Josh Wyatt<br>
          <b>Cc:</b> <a href="mailto:jwet@mindspring.com" target="_blank">jwet@mindspring.com</a>; TriEmbed Discussion<br>
          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [TriEmbed] Powering ESP32 from an 8v golf
          cart battery<br>
        </font><br>
      </div>
      <div dir="ltr">personal I like the <a href="https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/ld39130s.pdf" target="_blank">STM <font color="#03234b"><span style="box-sizing:border-box;background-size:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><b>LD39130SJ30R</b></span></font> </a>which
        is a good match for esp32 it will do 300ma with a 300mv drop the
        quiescent current is a remarkable 1 µA in green mode, 45 µA in
        normal mode which matched with the ULP mode on the esp32,  Not a
        problem with a golf cart but important for low power sensor. and
        to top it of STM will send you a couple for just the shipping
        cost, 
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div> The package a somewhat of a pain.<br>
          <div><br>
          </div>
          <div>Nick</div>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>I have a number of the regulator board I pictured
          earlier should you be near Apex and want one.</div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div><br>
        </div>
        <div>nje</div>
      </div>
      <br>
      <div class="gmail_quote">
        <div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 1:17
          PM Josh Wyatt via TriEmbed <<a href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org" target="_blank">triembed@triembed.org</a>>
          wrote:<br>
        </div>
        <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
          <div dir="ltr">This is awesome info John, I'm enjoying the
            read.
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>From personal experience, the ESP32S (and ESP8266) can
              be pretty power hungry when the radios are on, and are
              particularly sensitive to brownouts... I try to use
              something with at least 300mA and with good, stiff caps.</div>
            <div><br>
            </div>
            <div>Thanks,<br>
              Josh</div>
          </div>
          <br>
          <div class="gmail_quote">
            <div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at
              9:42 AM John Wettroth via TriEmbed <<a href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org" target="_blank">triembed@triembed.org</a>>
              wrote:<br>
            </div>
            <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
              <div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Shane,</font></span></div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">There are a ton and
                      its unfortunately one of these "it depends" kind
                      of things.  But here are a few and why.</font></span></div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Most of the stuff I
                      do is pretty small, low current stuff and 2.7 or
                      3.3v-  an 8 bit uP and a display with some RF.  </font></span><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Very low
                      quiescent parts suitable for circuits with sleep
                      mode, etc.  A lot of my stuff lives outside and
                      runs on a 12v battery so I try to shoot for -40C
                      operation and 16v Max vin.  Temp range matters for
                      capacitors mostly and dropout.  I buy almost
                      exclusively from Digikey.  Their search engine and
                      service is amazing even if they cost a bit more. 
                      I tend to design very low power things and like
                      low Iq for sleep operation.  Generally very low Iq
                      means poor HF rejection (you need loop gain)- in
                      RF stuff, I'll compromise on Iq and shut the block
                      down, etc.  I prefer newer parts, there has been
                      so much progress in the last 15 years,
                      its amazing- there is no reason to use a 7805 for
                      any real design- even cheap stuff.  There are
                      better and even cheaper alternatives if you're
                      building more than a few hundred.  At low volumes,
                      7805's can be awfully cheap but they're really
                      only designed as 60/120 Hz type regulators in a
                      traditional AC supply.</font></span></div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Some old favorites-</font></span></div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Micrel (Mchip owns
                      Micrel linear now) MIC5203, 5205 series of BiCMOS
                      types.  PNP pass element but controlled drop out
                      current.  16v  50/150 mA, Iq 1 mA max.  Micrel
                      invented BiCMOS pretty much and its good to see
                      that Microchip is keeping a lot of their parts.</font></span></div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Microchip 1791 is a
                      great HV regulator- 30v max in, 70 mA out, load
                      dump (48V), Iq 70 uA.  Microchip makes tons of
                      cheap analog parts these days and lot of good
                      linears. They acquired Telcom semi many years ago
                      which was a big CMOS linear company (like
                      Maxim). Newer CMOS stuff is good but the older
                      stuff is not so good- done on large processes and
                      traded Low Iq for performance- very slow load and
                      line transient recovery, no PSRR, etc.</font></span></div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Toko TK11625 and
                          TK1150, Digikey dropped Toko but I still have
                          a lot of these around- they're officially
                          obsolete but they're plentiful everywhere and
                          there are newer alternatives. Available
                          in TO-92, 100 mA, Tk71150 is 5v LDO with good
                          HF rejection for low noise for a  post after a
                          switcher, Quiescent is OK at 300 uA,  Seiko
                          makes similar BiCMOS parts, can be hard to
                          find these days.  Microchip basically copied
                          these regulators to create their line and
                          DigiKey wants to keep Mchip happy. </font></span></font></span></div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font></span> </div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>TI TLV1117 A
                        "special" very low Iq LM1117 variant, quiescent
                        of 100 uA.  Better PSRR and dropout.  Good in 3
                        Alkaline of 1 LiIon to 2.5v apps.  Max Vin is
                        5.5v, only downside.</span></font></span></div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font></span> </div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Some favorites lately
                      (doing low cost stuff)</font></span></div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Diodes Inc AP-7381
                      series.  Available in TO-92 option still for quick
                      perfboard builds and breadboard.  Cheap.  Very low
                      Quiescent, 50/150 mA variants.  Digikey large
                      stocks always.</font></span></div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">ABLIC S-812Cxx
                      series.  1uA Iq, 10-100 mA output depend on
                      voltage.  Quiescent useful for running a real time
                      clock or deep shutdown on a HV input.</font></span></div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span> </div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">Anything that Maxim
                      or LTC/ADI makes are invariably awesome but low
                      volume pricing (<10k) is awful.  Real customers
                      pay nothing like those prices believe me.  I have
                      odds and ends of Maxim leftovers but never have
                      what I need.  TI has better pricing but isn't
                      innovating much in this area- the TLV1117 is an
                      exception- excellent.</font></span></div>
                <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span><span></span><span></span><span></span> </div>
                <div><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">In
                      your Golf Cart app, what's your load current min
                      and max and vin min and max. Any big line or load
                      steps? Temp range and size could help too.  Any
                      special operation needs like sleep?</font></span></div>
                <div><span></span> </div>
                <div><span><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff">After
                      25 years in Standard Products at Maxim, I can talk
                      Linear IC's more than anyone cares to listen. 
                      Take care- shoot me a private mail or call if you
                      have specific questions.</font></span></div>
                <p><font size="2">Regards,<br>
                    John M. Wettroth<br>
                    (984) 329-5420 (home)<br>
                    (919) 349-9875 (cell) </font></p>
                <div> </div>
                <br>
                <div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" align="left">
                  <hr> <font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b> Shane
                    Trent [mailto:<a href="mailto:shanedtrent@gmail.com" target="_blank">shanedtrent@gmail.com</a>]
                    <br>
                    <b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, November 17, 2020 9:57 AM<br>
                    <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:jwet@mindspring.com" target="_blank">jwet@mindspring.com</a><br>
                    <b>Cc:</b> Pete Soper; TriEmbed Discussion<br>
                    <b>Subject:</b> Re: [TriEmbed] Powering ESP32 from
                    an 8v golf cart battery<br>
                  </font><br>
                </div>
                <div dir="ltr">John,
                  <div><br>
                  </div>
                  <div>Thank you for your breakdown on voltage
                    regulators. Would you mind sharing some of your
                    favorite part numbers in the "Modern BiCMOS LDOs"? </div>
                  <div><br>
                    Thanks!</div>
                  <div>Shane</div>
                </div>
                <br>
                <div class="gmail_quote">
                  <div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Mon, Nov 16, 2020
                    at 5:52 PM John Wettroth via TriEmbed <<a href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org" target="_blank">triembed@triembed.org</a>>
                    wrote:<br>
                  </div>
                  <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="padding-left:1ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
                    <div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>I'll put my
                            2 cents in here for a few subtleties.  I
                            defined probably 1000 different linear and
                            switching regulators at Maxim in my 25
                            years.</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>Vout plus
                            dropout is pretty good overall.  But don't
                            forget that dropout is defined where the
                            output voltage drops 100 mV.  Its coming out
                            of regulation and all the goodness that
                            linears give you stops happening.  You also
                            want to do this at max load, max output
                            tolerance and worst temp.  The drop out for
                            bipolars decreases for higher temps which
                            helps but at very cold temps, it can grow- a
                            lot a very cold.  This is not allways well
                            specified.</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>There are
                            several classes of dropout that are driven
                            by the design of the ouput stage</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>Vdropout</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>2v     
                            standard bipolar linears like the 7805 use
                            an NPN darlington output- nice low impedance
                            and easy to use.</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>1v     
                            LM1117 type bipolar linears use a Sziklai
                            modified darlington with an NPN follower
                            driven by a PNP- pretty good comprimise</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>.5v    
                            LM2940 PNP pass element parts have low
                            dropout but some squirelly stability issues
                            at times and can have high quiescent at
                            dropout</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>.1v    
                            PMOS or charge pumped NPN pass element
                            types that looks like a small resistance in
                            dropout.  Quiescent can be very low.</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><span></span><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><font color="#0000ff">.</font></font></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><font color="#0000ff"><span>Depending
                                on the type of regulator, there are
                                subtlties that happen around dropout.</span></font></font></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font face="Arial"><font size="2"><font color="#0000ff"><span></span></font></font></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>Old bipolar
                            regulators like the 7805 have a drop out of
                            about 2v conservatively.  The output is an
                            emitter follower darlington stage which is 2
                            vbe's (.7v each) and 2 Vce sat (about .2v
                            each).  This is about 1.8v.  Since
                            the output is a follower, it has a gain of 1
                            and are generally very well behaved with
                            very little thought given to bypassing and
                            stability.  High frequency rejection is poor
                            and accuracy is somewhat poor.</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>First
                            generation  bipolar LDO's like the LM2940
                            etc, used a PNP output stage with a grounded
                            NPN pulling its base down.  These parts have
                            two Vce sats in the dropout path (about
                            .5v).  These  transistors have gain on top
                            of the error amp gain and get unstable
                            without following the the bypassing
                            instructions closely.  The output cap
                            becomes the dominant pole and the ESR of the
                            output cap has to in a specific range-
                            neither two small or two large.  The other
                            annoying feature of this class is as you
                            approach dropout- the beta provided by the
                            PNP pass element goes south and they can
                            draw lots of current at or near dropout
                            trying to keep the PNP in saturation.  In
                            low power circuits, this can cause a sort of
                            latching action and flatten a battery in no
                            time.</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>The LM1117
                            type second gen bipolar LDO's have a NPN
                            follower ouput.  These have the benefit of a
                            follower but only moderate dropout
                            performance.  They were basically invented
                            to make 3.3v from 5v which a 7805 couldn't
                            do.  Good for point of load but kind of
                            mediocre otherwise.</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>Modern
                            BiCMOS LDO's generally have a PMOS pass
                            element and some MOS and Bipolar circuits.. 
                            These can have very low quiescent, very low
                            noise and the lowest dropout possible.  They
                            are also pretty stable with most loads but
                            take a signicant cap on the output usually. 
                            Something like a 10 uF ceramic.  Microchip
                            make some good  low cost parts in this
                            class.  Probably my favorites.</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>There are
                            all CMOS LDO's that share most of features
                            of the last category but don't get the low
                            noise and high accurancy generally.</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>One other
                            issue is your 8v battery.  The charging
                            voltage on a Lead Acid could be over 10V
                            which is a common abs max for many linears.</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span>My 2 cents.</span></font></div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div dir="ltr" align="left"><font size="2" face="Arial" color="#0000ff"><span></span></font> </div>
                      <div> </div>
                      <p><font size="2">Regards,<br>
                          John M. Wettroth<br>
                          (984) 329-5420 (home)<br>
                          (919) 349-9875 (cell) </font></p>
                      <div> </div>
                      <br>
                      <div dir="ltr" lang="en-us" align="left">
                        <hr> <font size="2" face="Tahoma"><b>From:</b>
                          TriEmbed [mailto:<a href="mailto:triembed-bounces@triembed.org" target="_blank">triembed-bounces@triembed.org</a>]
                          <b>On Behalf Of </b>Pete Soper via TriEmbed<br>
                          <b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 16, 2020 10:46
                          AM<br>
                          <b>To:</b> <a href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org" target="_blank">triembed@triembed.org</a><br>
                          <b>Subject:</b> Re: [TriEmbed] Powering ESP32
                          from an 8v golf cart battery<br>
                        </font><br>
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                      <p><br>
                      </p>
                      <div>On 11/15/20 10:34 PM, The MacDougals via
                        TriEmbed wrote:<br>
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