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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=136184213-19112020>That's a nice part Nick. Like a lot of modern
parts on small process, its kind of designed around one LiIon cell
operation. I like the "green mode" stuff. LTC and Maxim make some
parts like that. The difficulty with switchover type parts is when you
have a big load transient (eg- a transmit burst). If the part is in the
low quiescent mode, it can droop and cause havoc.I noticed it has a forced green
mode pin which could alleviate this with some thought in software. A lot
of times, its easier to have a seperate regulator for the high current case or
if they can be split up.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=136184213-19112020></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN
class=136184213-19112020>I didn't realize that these ESP devices require so
much current, I've only played with one on the bench pretty casually.
For the 8v input case, you really might want to consider a buck converter
unless the high current only runs very intermittently. The power wasted in
a linear could create potential heat problems. You're talking about
getting rid of 1.5 watts from your 8v source.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=136184213-19112020><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>I
agree with Nick on those DFN packages- awful, you're into hot air or oven
reflow. I like parts that come in a variety of packages including through
hole, this is getting rare these days.</FONT></SPAN></DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P><FONT size=2>Regards,<BR>John M. Wettroth<BR>(984) 329-5420 (home)<BR>(919)
349-9875 (cell<SPAN class=136184213-19112020>)</SPAN></FONT></P><BR>
<DIV lang=en-us class=OutlookMessageHeader dir=ltr align=left>
<HR tabIndex=-1>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> Nick Edgington
[mailto:nickedgington@edgingtonlabs.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, November
18, 2020 6:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Josh Wyatt<BR><B>Cc:</B> jwet@mindspring.com;
TriEmbed Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TriEmbed] Powering ESP32 from an 8v
golf cart battery<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>personal I like the <A
href="https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/ld39130s.pdf">STM <FONT
color=#03234b><SPAN
style="BOX-SIZING: border-box; background-size: initial; background-origin: initial; background-clip: initial"><B>LD39130SJ30R</B></SPAN></FONT> </A>which
is a good match for esp32 it will do 300ma with a 300mv drop the quiescent
current is a remarkable 1 ľA in green mode, 45 ľA in normal mode which matched
with the ULP mode on the esp32, Not a problem with a golf cart but
important for low power sensor. and to top it of STM will send you a couple for
just the shipping cost,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV> The package a somewhat of a pain.<BR>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Nick</DIV></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>I have a number of the regulator board I pictured earlier should you
be near Apex and want one.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>nje</DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=gmail_attr dir=ltr>On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 1:17 PM Josh Wyatt via
TriEmbed <<A
href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org">triembed@triembed.org</A>>
wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex">
<DIV dir=ltr>This is awesome info John, I'm enjoying the read.
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>From personal experience, the ESP32S (and ESP8266) can be pretty power
hungry when the radios are on, and are particularly sensitive to brownouts...
I try to use something with at least 300mA and with good, stiff caps.</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Thanks,<BR>Josh</DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=gmail_attr dir=ltr>On Wed, Nov 18, 2020 at 9:42 AM John Wettroth
via TriEmbed <<A href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org"
target=_blank>triembed@triembed.org</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex"><U></U>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Shane,</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>There
are a ton and its unfortunately one of these "it depends" kind of
things. But here are a few and why.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Most of
the stuff I do is pretty small, low current stuff and 2.7 or 3.3v- an
8 bit uP and a display with some RF. </FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT
color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Very low quiescent parts suitable for
circuits with sleep mode, etc. A lot of my stuff lives outside and
runs on a 12v battery so I try to shoot for -40C operation and
16v Max vin. Temp range matters for capacitors mostly and
dropout. I buy almost exclusively from Digikey. Their
search engine and service is amazing even if they cost a bit
more. I tend to design very low power things and like low Iq for sleep
operation. Generally very low Iq means poor HF rejection (you need
loop gain)- in RF stuff, I'll compromise on Iq and shut the block down,
etc. I prefer newer parts, there has been so much progress in the last
15 years, its amazing- there is no reason to use a 7805 for any real
design- even cheap stuff. There are better and even cheaper
alternatives if you're building more than a few hundred. At low
volumes, 7805's can be awfully cheap but they're really only designed as
60/120 Hz type regulators in a traditional AC supply.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Some old
favorites-</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Micrel
(Mchip owns Micrel linear now) MIC5203, 5205 series of BiCMOS
types. PNP pass element but controlled drop out current.
16v 50/150 mA, Iq 1 mA max. Micrel invented BiCMOS pretty much
and its good to see that Microchip is keeping a lot of their
parts.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial>Microchip 1791 is a great HV regulator- 30v max in, 70 mA
out, load dump (48V), Iq 70 uA. Microchip makes tons of cheap analog
parts these days and lot of good linears. They acquired Telcom semi many
years ago which was a big CMOS linear company (like Maxim). Newer CMOS
stuff is good but the older stuff is not so good- done on large processes
and traded Low Iq for performance- very slow load and line transient
recovery, no PSRR, etc.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Toko TK11625 and
TK1150, Digikey dropped Toko but I still have a lot of these around- they're
officially obsolete but they're plentiful everywhere and there are newer
alternatives. Available in TO-92, 100 mA, Tk71150 is 5v LDO with good
HF rejection for low noise for a post after a switcher, Quiescent is
OK at 300 uA, Seiko makes similar BiCMOS parts, can be hard to find
these days. Microchip basically copied these regulators to create
their line and DigiKey wants to keep Mchip
happy. </FONT></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>TI
TLV1117 A "special" very low Iq LM1117 variant, quiescent of 100
uA. Better PSRR and dropout. Good in 3 Alkaline of 1 LiIon to
2.5v apps. Max Vin is 5.5v, only downside.</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Some
favorites lately (doing low cost stuff)</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Diodes
Inc AP-7381 series. Available in TO-92 option still for quick
perfboard builds and breadboard. Cheap. Very low Quiescent,
50/150 mA variants. Digikey large stocks
always.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>ABLIC
S-812Cxx series. 1uA Iq, 10-100 mA output depend on
voltage. Quiescent useful for running a real time clock or deep
shutdown on a HV input.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>Anything
that Maxim or LTC/ADI makes are invariably awesome but low volume
pricing (<10k) is awful. Real customers pay nothing like those
prices believe me. I have odds and ends of Maxim leftovers but
never have what I need. TI has better pricing but isn't innovating
much in this area- the TLV1117 is an exception-
excellent.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr
align=left><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN></SPAN><FONT
color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>In your Golf Cart app,
what's your load current min and max and vin min and max. Any big
line or load steps? Temp range and size could help too. Any
special operation needs like sleep?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial>After 25 years in Standard
Products at Maxim, I can talk Linear IC's more than anyone cares to
listen. Take care- shoot me a private mail or call if you have
specific questions.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Regards,<BR>John M. Wettroth<BR>(984) 329-5420
(home)<BR>(919) 349-9875 (cell) </FONT></P>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> Shane Trent [mailto:<A
href="mailto:shanedtrent@gmail.com" target=_blank>shanedtrent@gmail.com</A>]
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, November 17, 2020 9:57 AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A
href="mailto:jwet@mindspring.com"
target=_blank>jwet@mindspring.com</A><BR><B>Cc:</B> Pete Soper; TriEmbed
Discussion<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TriEmbed] Powering ESP32 from an 8v golf
cart battery<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>John,
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV>Thank you for your breakdown on voltage regulators. Would you mind
sharing some of your favorite part numbers in the "Modern BiCMOS
LDOs"? </DIV>
<DIV><BR>Thanks!</DIV>
<DIV>Shane</DIV></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>
<DIV class=gmail_attr dir=ltr>On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 5:52 PM John Wettroth
via TriEmbed <<A href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org"
target=_blank>triembed@triembed.org</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=gmail_quote
style="PADDING-LEFT: 1ex; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(204,204,204) 1px solid; MARGIN: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex"><U></U>
<DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>I'll
put my 2 cents in here for a few subtleties. I defined
probably 1000 different linear and switching regulators at
Maxim in my 25 years.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>Vout
plus dropout is pretty good overall. But don't forget that dropout
is defined where the output voltage drops 100 mV. Its coming
out of regulation and all the goodness that linears give you stops
happening. You also want to do this at max load, max output
tolerance and worst temp. The drop out for bipolars decreases
for higher temps which helps but at very cold temps, it can grow- a lot a
very cold. This is not allways well specified.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>There
are several classes of dropout that are driven by the design of the ouput
stage</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN>Vdropout</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN>2v standard bipolar linears
like the 7805 use an NPN darlington output- nice low impedance and easy to
use.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN>1v LM1117 type bipolar
linears use a Sziklai modified darlington with an NPN follower driven by a
PNP- pretty good comprimise</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN>.5v LM2940 PNP pass element parts
have low dropout but some squirelly stability issues at times and can have
high quiescent at dropout</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN>.1v PMOS or charge pumped NPN
pass element types that looks like a small resistance in
dropout. Quiescent can be very low.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><SPAN></SPAN><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT
color=#0000ff>.</FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT
color=#0000ff><SPAN>Depending on the type of regulator, there are
subtlties that happen around dropout.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT size=2><FONT
color=#0000ff><SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>Old
bipolar regulators like the 7805 have a drop out of about 2v
conservatively. The output is an emitter follower darlington stage
which is 2 vbe's (.7v each) and 2 Vce sat (about .2v each). This is
about 1.8v. Since the output is a follower, it has a gain
of 1 and are generally very well behaved with very little
thought given to bypassing and stability. High frequency rejection
is poor and accuracy is somewhat poor.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>First
generation bipolar LDO's like the LM2940 etc, used a PNP output
stage with a grounded NPN pulling its base down. These parts have
two Vce sats in the dropout path (about .5v).
These transistors have gain on top of the error amp gain
and get unstable without following the the bypassing instructions
closely. The output cap becomes the dominant pole and the ESR of the
output cap has to in a specific range- neither two small or two
large. The other annoying feature of this class is as you approach
dropout- the beta provided by the PNP pass element goes south
and they can draw lots of current at or near dropout trying to keep the
PNP in saturation. In low power circuits, this can cause a sort of
latching action and flatten a battery in no time.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>The
LM1117 type second gen bipolar LDO's have a NPN follower ouput.
These have the benefit of a follower but only moderate dropout
performance. They were basically invented to make 3.3v from 5v which
a 7805 couldn't do. Good for point of load but kind of mediocre
otherwise.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>Modern
BiCMOS LDO's generally have a PMOS pass element and some MOS and Bipolar
circuits.. These can have very low quiescent, very low noise and the
lowest dropout possible. They are also pretty stable with most loads
but take a signicant cap on the output usually. Something like a 10
uF ceramic. Microchip make some good low cost parts in this
class. Probably my favorites.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>There
are all CMOS LDO's that share most of features of the last category but
don't get the low noise and high accurancy generally.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>One
other issue is your 8v battery. The charging voltage on a Lead Acid
could be over 10V which is a common abs max for many
linears.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial><SPAN>My 2
cents.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT color=#0000ff size=2
face=Arial><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<P><FONT size=2>Regards,<BR>John M. Wettroth<BR>(984) 329-5420
(home)<BR>(919) 349-9875 (cell) </FONT></P>
<DIV> </DIV><BR>
<DIV lang=en-us dir=ltr align=left>
<HR>
<FONT size=2 face=Tahoma><B>From:</B> TriEmbed [mailto:<A
href="mailto:triembed-bounces@triembed.org"
target=_blank>triembed-bounces@triembed.org</A>] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Pete
Soper via TriEmbed<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, November 16, 2020 10:46
AM<BR><B>To:</B> <A href="mailto:triembed@triembed.org"
target=_blank>triembed@triembed.org</A><BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [TriEmbed]
Powering ESP32 from an 8v golf cart battery<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<P><BR></P>
<DIV>On 11/15/20 10:34 PM, The MacDougals via TriEmbed wrote:<BR></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
type="cite"></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>Triangle,
NC Embedded Computing mailing list<BR><BR>To post message: <A
href="mailto:TriEmbed@triembed.org"
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send a blank message: mailto:<A
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