From paulmacdnc at att.net Thu Aug 10 15:30:49 2023 From: paulmacdnc at att.net (The MacDougals) Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2023 16:30:49 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Monthly meeting 8/14 @ 7pm References: <004301d9cbc9$8dbe8a40$a93b9ec0$.ref@att.net> Message-ID: <004301d9cbc9$8dbe8a40$a93b9ec0$@att.net> We will have our normal monthly meeting on Monday 8/14/23 at 7:00 pm Agenda: - Welcome - Announcements - P.O.T.M. - Show and Tell The plan for this month is to use https://meet.jit.si/TriEmbed ---> Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pete at soper.us Sun Aug 13 11:10:28 2023 From: pete at soper.us (Peter Soper) Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2023 12:10:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TriEmbed] Interesting machine instruction Message-ID: <2e4bba4f-1500-4c7b-ba84-87611881ad9d@soper.us> Here is a well written, short blurb about the instruction for counting set bits. Spoiler: I expect all of you to 'believe it". ? You Won?t Believe This One Weird CPU Instruction (2019) - https://vaibhavsagar.com/blog/2019/09/08/popcount/ Pete -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paulmacdnc at att.net Wed Aug 16 15:28:32 2023 From: paulmacdnc at att.net (The MacDougals) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2023 16:28:32 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Measure voltage References: <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$.ref@att.net> Message-ID: <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$@att.net> I know how to set up a voltage divider with a couple of resistors to measure battery voltage of ~12v on an analog pin that accepts 3.3v. But, I really am interested in a small segment of the range, say 9v to 13v. How would I "zoom" in on that range? I want to subtract/bias the vbat by the 9v minimum. So, 9v -> 0 and 13v -> 3.3. ---> Paul -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From scottghall1 at gmail.com Wed Aug 16 16:59:34 2023 From: scottghall1 at gmail.com (Scott Hall) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2023 17:59:34 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Measure voltage In-Reply-To: <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$@att.net> References: <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$.ref@att.net> <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$@att.net> Message-ID: See if this article covers what you want -- you can adapt it to be the prebuffer before the ADC input: https://circuitdigest.com/electronic-circuits/simple-battery-level-indicator-using-op-amp - sgh On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 4:29?PM The MacDougals via TriEmbed < triembed at triembed.org> wrote: > I know how to set up a voltage divider with a couple of resistors to > measure > > battery voltage of ~12v on an analog pin that accepts 3.3v. > > > > But, I really am interested in a small segment of the range, say 9v to 13v. > > How would I ?zoom? in on that range? I want to subtract/bias the vbat > > by the 9v minimum. So, 9v -> 0 and 13v -> 3.3. > > > > ---> Paul > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list > > To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org > List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org > TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org > To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto: > unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe > Searchable email archive available at > https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > > -- Scott G. Hall Raleigh, NC, USA scottghall1 at gmail.com *Although kindness is rarely a job, no matter what you do it's always an option.* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pete at soper.us Thu Aug 17 08:17:42 2023 From: pete at soper.us (Pete soper) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 09:17:42 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Measure voltage In-Reply-To: <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$@att.net> References: <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$.ref@att.net> <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$@att.net> Message-ID: <587a8d67-7c85-8454-94fa-1d61bed29e18@soper.us> This might be helpful if the battery being monitored is not also powering the MPU. Just tie MPU ground to the top of the zener and the zener input to the battery + terminal.? The pot and meter are not relevant. So "zero" is the zener voltage. Pete Zener circuit On 8/16/23 16:28, The MacDougals via TriEmbed wrote: > > I know how to set up a voltage divider with a couple of resistors to > measure > > battery voltage of ~12v on an analog pin that accepts 3.3v. > > But, I really am interested in a small segment of the range, say 9v to > 13v. > > How would I ?zoom? in on that range?? I want to subtract/bias the vbat > > by the 9v minimum.? So, 9v -> 0 and 13v -> 3.3. > > ---> Paul > > > _______________________________________________ > Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list > > To post message:TriEmbed at triembed.org > List info:http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org > TriEmbed web site:https://TriEmbed.org > To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message:mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe > Searchable email archive available athttps://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: zener.png Type: image/png Size: 119163 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pete at soper.us Thu Aug 17 08:42:10 2023 From: pete at soper.us (Peter Soper) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 09:42:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TriEmbed] Measure voltage In-Reply-To: <587a8d67-7c85-8454-94fa-1d61bed29e18@soper.us> References: <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$.ref@att.net> <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$@att.net> <587a8d67-7c85-8454-94fa-1d61bed29e18@soper.us> Message-ID: <80f3e974-684a-47b0-a74d-5a2885b4050e@soper.us> I meant the ADC input, not the "zener input". ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trampas at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 08:40:15 2023 From: trampas at gmail.com (Trampas Stern) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 09:40:15 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Measure voltage In-Reply-To: <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$@att.net> References: <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$.ref@att.net> <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$@att.net> Message-ID: So how much resolution on the ADC do you need, and how are you going to test the results? For example if you are measuring between 0-13V with a 12bit ADC (I will assume 12 effective bits) then you have ~3.174mV resolution on the measurement with a simple voltage divider. Now you can scale the voltage as you mentioned by using some op-amps and/or negative reference for the voltage divider. However this adds more hardware to the design as such if the simple divider and bit depth of the ADC is good enough, it is good enough. To use an opamp you basically setup a voltage subtractor (differential amplifier) where the negative reference is 9V. So basically you make the circuit implement the mathematical operation of X=Vin-9V, see: https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/opamp/opamp_5.html For the 9V reference you can use a zener, voltage reference or linear regulator. Not that here again your accuracy of measurement will be based on the accuracy of the voltage reference and components used in the differential amplifier. For example if the voltage reference is +/-1%, then you could have a +/-9mV error on the voltage measurement due to accuracy for the voltage reference. So here again if you had a 12 effective bit ADC you might be more accurate with a simple voltage divider and measure 0-13V, than doing the differential amplifier and measuring 9-13V. Also note that your accuracy of the ADC is based on the accuracy of the ADC voltage reference as well, so make sure you account for this as well. Remember that accuracy, precision, and resolution are not the same things, for example: [image: image.png] Many people get accuracy and precision confused and assume that precision defines accuracy, for example which of these is more accurate? [image: image.png] Basically you do not know which is more accurate unless you can measure the target value with more accuracy and precision then your samples, for example: [image: image.png] So for example if you are trying to measure to 1mV resolution and your multimeter you are using as a golden reference is 10mV resolution you can not calibrate the system and know you can measure to 1mV. To this end I have found in my professional life, rather than asking about product requirements, it is often better to ask "How are you going to measure if this product meets your requirements?" That is if someone has their test and validation plans defined, then requirements are known. Where if they have requirements with no test plan, then often they have not figured out how to measure when they are done. For engineers if you have no measure for doneness, then they will never be done with a project. Trampas On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 4:29?PM The MacDougals via TriEmbed < triembed at triembed.org> wrote: > I know how to set up a voltage divider with a couple of resistors to > measure > > battery voltage of ~12v on an analog pin that accepts 3.3v. > > > > But, I really am interested in a small segment of the range, say 9v to 13v. > > How would I ?zoom? in on that range? I want to subtract/bias the vbat > > by the 9v minimum. So, 9v -> 0 and 13v -> 3.3. > > > > ---> Paul > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list > > To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org > List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org > TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org > To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto: > unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe > Searchable email archive available at > https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 242040 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 25165 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 42711 bytes Desc: not available URL: From pete at soper.us Thu Aug 17 11:54:22 2023 From: pete at soper.us (Peter Soper) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 12:54:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TriEmbed] Raspberry Pi idle current vs clock rate(s) Message-ID: Can anybody speak to this? I'm told (by an eager word-guesser aka "ai") that a Pi 4 idles around 575mA. If I drop the clock from 1200 to 600mHz (as low as it will go if my other info is right) I wonder if this will cut the idle current in half or is it likely to be a larger fraction? Pete -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trampas at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 12:03:09 2023 From: trampas at gmail.com (Trampas Stern) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 13:03:09 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Raspberry Pi idle current vs clock rate(s) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://www.pidramble.com/wiki/benchmarks/power-consumption On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 12:54?PM Peter Soper via TriEmbed < triembed at triembed.org> wrote: > Can anybody speak to this? I'm told (by an eager word-guesser aka "ai") > that a Pi 4 idles around 575mA. If I drop the clock from 1200 to 600mHz (as > low as it will go if my other info is right) I wonder if this will cut the > idle current in half or is it likely to be a larger fraction? > > Pete > _______________________________________________ > Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list > > To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org > List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org > TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org > To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto: > unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe > Searchable email archive available at > https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trampas at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 12:11:00 2023 From: trampas at gmail.com (Trampas Stern) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 13:11:00 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Raspberry Pi idle current vs clock rate(s) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There are other chips consuming power beyond the processor: https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=152692 LAN WIFI HDMI etc Typically power increases exponentially with clock rate. However I bet the OS internally is sleeping the processor when idle, effectively dropping clock rate. I doubt your power will drop significantly by underclocking at idle unless you disable other chips and peripherals. This most likely does not solve your problem but might answer your question. Trampas On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 1:03?PM Trampas Stern wrote: > https://www.pidramble.com/wiki/benchmarks/power-consumption > > > > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 12:54?PM Peter Soper via TriEmbed < > triembed at triembed.org> wrote: > >> Can anybody speak to this? I'm told (by an eager word-guesser aka "ai") >> that a Pi 4 idles around 575mA. If I drop the clock from 1200 to 600mHz (as >> low as it will go if my other info is right) I wonder if this will cut the >> idle current in half or is it likely to be a larger fraction? >> >> Pete >> _______________________________________________ >> Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list >> >> To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org >> List info: >> http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org >> TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org >> To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto: >> unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe >> Searchable email archive available at >> https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jvaughters04 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 17 16:09:36 2023 From: jvaughters04 at yahoo.com (John Vaughters) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 21:09:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [TriEmbed] Measure voltage In-Reply-To: References: <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$.ref@att.net> <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$@att.net> Message-ID: <1744397218.1055243.1692306576152@mail.yahoo.com> Steve, Excellent discussion on accuracy and precision, I enjoyed reading the clarifications and examples you gave. I never really broke it down like that before, but probably followed your methods/ideas in practice.? If I missed anything in the discussion, then forgive the repeat info, but I would probably put a 3.3v zener on the measuring pin for protection of that pin in the case of accidental overvoltage. Not sure if the chip has protection or not, but just a thought. Thanks, John Vaughters On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 09:44:02 AM EDT, Trampas Stern via TriEmbed wrote: So how much resolution?on the ADC do you need,?and how are?you going to test the?results?? For example if you are measuring between 0-13V with a 12bit?ADC (I will assume 12 effective bits) then you have ~3.174mV resolution on the measurement with a simple voltage divider.? Now you can scale the voltage as you mentioned by using some op-amps and/or negative reference for the voltage divider.? However this adds more hardware to the design as such if the simple divider and bit depth of the ADC is good enough, it is good enough.? To use an opamp you basically setup a voltage subtractor (differential amplifier) where the negative reference is 9V.? So basically you make the circuit?implement the mathematical operation of X=Vin-9V, see:?https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/opamp/opamp_5.html For the 9V reference you can use a zener, voltage reference or linear regulator.? Not that here again your accuracy of measurement will be based on the accuracy of the voltage reference and components used in the differential amplifier.? For example if the voltage reference is?+/-1%, then you could have a +/-9mV error on the voltage measurement due to accuracy for the voltage reference.? ?So here again if you had a 12 effective bit ADC you might be more accurate with a simple voltage divider and measure 0-13V, than doing the differential amplifier and measuring 9-13V.? Also note that your accuracy of the ADC is based on the accuracy of the ADC voltage reference as well, so make sure you account for this as well.? Remember that accuracy, precision, and resolution are not the same things, for example:? Many people get accuracy and precision confused and assume that precision defines accuracy, for example which of these is more accurate?? ? Basically you do not know which is more accurate unless you can measure the target value with more accuracy and precision?then your samples, for example:? So for example if you are trying to measure to 1mV resolution and your multimeter you are using as a golden reference is 10mV resolution you can not calibrate the system and know you can measure to 1mV.? To this end I have found in my professional life, rather than asking about product requirements, it is often better to ask "How are you going to measure if this product meets your requirements?"? That is if someone has their test and validation plans defined, then requirements are known.? Where if they have requirements with no test plan, then often they have not figured out how to measure when they are done. For engineers if you have no measure for doneness, then they will never be done with a project.? Trampas On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 4:29?PM The MacDougals via TriEmbed wrote: > I know how to set up a voltage divider with a couple of resistors to measure > battery voltage of ~12v on an analog pin that accepts 3.3v. > ? > But, I really am interested in a small segment of the range, say 9v to 13v. > How would I ?zoom? in on that range?? I want to subtract/bias the vbat > by the 9v minimum.? So, 9v -> 0 and 13v -> 3.3. > ? > ---> Paul > ? > ? > ? > _______________________________________________ > Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list > > To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org > List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org > TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org > To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe > Searchable email archive available at https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > > _______________________________________________ Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe Searchable email archive available at https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ From jvaughters04 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 17 16:11:12 2023 From: jvaughters04 at yahoo.com (John Vaughters) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 21:11:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [TriEmbed] Measure voltage In-Reply-To: <1744397218.1055243.1692306576152@mail.yahoo.com> References: <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$.ref@att.net> <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$@att.net> <1744397218.1055243.1692306576152@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <518472719.1040691.1692306672613@mail.yahoo.com> Stern, I just checked autofill for Stern to Steve, and I admit I have no excuse. `,~) Sorry I missed that. John Vaughters On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 05:09:36 PM EDT, John Vaughters wrote: Steve, Excellent discussion on accuracy and precision, I enjoyed reading the clarifications and examples you gave. I never really broke it down like that before, but probably followed your methods/ideas in practice.? If I missed anything in the discussion, then forgive the repeat info, but I would probably put a 3.3v zener on the measuring pin for protection of that pin in the case of accidental overvoltage. Not sure if the chip has protection or not, but just a thought. Thanks, John Vaughters On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 09:44:02 AM EDT, Trampas Stern via TriEmbed wrote: So how much resolution?on the ADC do you need,?and how are?you going to test the?results?? For example if you are measuring between 0-13V with a 12bit?ADC (I will assume 12 effective bits) then you have ~3.174mV resolution on the measurement with a simple voltage divider.? Now you can scale the voltage as you mentioned by using some op-amps and/or negative reference for the voltage divider.? However this adds more hardware to the design as such if the simple divider and bit depth of the ADC is good enough, it is good enough.? To use an opamp you basically setup a voltage subtractor (differential amplifier) where the negative reference is 9V.? So basically you make the circuit?implement the mathematical operation of X=Vin-9V, see:?https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/opamp/opamp_5.html For the 9V reference you can use a zener, voltage reference or linear regulator.? Not that here again your accuracy of measurement will be based on the accuracy of the voltage reference and components used in the differential amplifier.? For example if the voltage reference is?+/-1%, then you could have a +/-9mV error on the voltage measurement due to accuracy for the voltage reference.? ?So here again if you had a 12 effective bit ADC you might be more accurate with a simple voltage divider and measure 0-13V, than doing the differential amplifier and measuring 9-13V.? Also note that your accuracy of the ADC is based on the accuracy of the ADC voltage reference as well, so make sure you account for this as well.? Remember that accuracy, precision, and resolution are not the same things, for example:? Many people get accuracy and precision confused and assume that precision defines accuracy, for example which of these is more accurate?? ? Basically you do not know which is more accurate unless you can measure the target value with more accuracy and precision?then your samples, for example:? So for example if you are trying to measure to 1mV resolution and your multimeter you are using as a golden reference is 10mV resolution you can not calibrate the system and know you can measure to 1mV.? To this end I have found in my professional life, rather than asking about product requirements, it is often better to ask "How are you going to measure if this product meets your requirements?"? That is if someone has their test and validation plans defined, then requirements are known.? Where if they have requirements with no test plan, then often they have not figured out how to measure when they are done. For engineers if you have no measure for doneness, then they will never be done with a project.? Trampas On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 4:29?PM The MacDougals via TriEmbed wrote: > I know how to set up a voltage divider with a couple of resistors to measure > battery voltage of ~12v on an analog pin that accepts 3.3v. > ? > But, I really am interested in a small segment of the range, say 9v to 13v. > How would I ?zoom? in on that range?? I want to subtract/bias the vbat > by the 9v minimum.? So, 9v -> 0 and 13v -> 3.3. > ? > ---> Paul > ? > ? > ? > _______________________________________________ > Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list > > To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org > List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org > TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org > To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe > Searchable email archive available at https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > > _______________________________________________ Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe Searchable email archive available at https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ From trampas at gmail.com Thu Aug 17 16:37:41 2023 From: trampas at gmail.com (Trampas Stern) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2023 17:37:41 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Measure voltage In-Reply-To: <518472719.1040691.1692306672613@mail.yahoo.com> References: <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$.ref@att.net> <006201d9d080$3a970f70$afc52e50$@att.net> <1744397218.1055243.1692306576152@mail.yahoo.com> <518472719.1040691.1692306672613@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes on the Zener for protection: [image: image.png] Also you want to have high precision resistors, 1% are used above, as the resistor values will affect the accuracy. Note that resistors tolerances can be calibrated out per unit, but higher quality resistors are cheaper than calibration. Also you want to have a capacitor on the ADC input to smooth out the high frequency noise (low pass filter). The capacitor should be much larger than your ADC's internal sample and hold capacitance to allow faster sampling with less error in measurement due to shorter sampling periods. Note that GPIO pins on microcontrollers often have Schottky diode clamps on the pins, however ADC and analog pins may not have clamping due to the added impedance (capacitance) of the diodes. [image: image.png] These internal diodes will clamp and overvoltage up to your VDD/VCC, however most LDOs and buck converters will not clamp overvoltage. As such when a GPIO pin is overvoltage it will increase the voltage on VCC/VDD and then fry all chips connected to that power rail. As a result I have gotten into the habit of putting a 3.9V zener on the 3.3V power rail, such that it will clamp over voltage issues. I use a 3.9V zener as you want to make sure the breakdown voltage is well above 3.3V such that it does not have high leakage current with your nominal 3.3V. Adding Zener diodes to my power rails has saved many boards for me. For example when you have a solder bridge shorting out LDO, or when someone (me) accidently puts high voltage on a pin. I have also noticed that when the zeners fail due to over voltage (wattage), they usually fail shorted, which is nice as if I see power rail shorted I will check for heat on the zener and know that I most likely have an overvoltage failure that fried the zener. The zener needs to be replaced but it did its job in protecting all other chips on the board. Trampas On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 5:11?PM John Vaughters wrote: > Stern, > > I just checked autofill for Stern to Steve, and I admit I have no excuse. > `,~) > > Sorry I missed that. > > John Vaughters > > > > > > > On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 05:09:36 PM EDT, John Vaughters < > jvaughters04 at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > > > > Steve, > > Excellent discussion on accuracy and precision, I enjoyed reading the > clarifications and examples you gave. I never really broke it down like > that before, but probably followed your methods/ideas in practice. > > If I missed anything in the discussion, then forgive the repeat info, but > I would probably put a 3.3v zener on the measuring pin for protection of > that pin in the case of accidental overvoltage. Not sure if the chip has > protection or not, but just a thought. > > Thanks, > > John Vaughters > > > > > > On Thursday, August 17, 2023 at 09:44:02 AM EDT, Trampas Stern via > TriEmbed wrote: > > > > > > So how much resolution on the ADC do you need, and how are you going to > test the results? For example if you are measuring between 0-13V with a > 12bit ADC (I will assume 12 effective bits) then you have ~3.174mV > resolution on the measurement with a simple voltage divider. > > Now you can scale the voltage as you mentioned by using some op-amps > and/or negative reference for the voltage divider. However this adds more > hardware to the design as such if the simple divider and bit depth of the > ADC is good enough, it is good enough. > > To use an opamp you basically setup a voltage subtractor (differential > amplifier) where the negative reference is 9V. So basically you make the > circuit implement the mathematical operation of X=Vin-9V, see: > https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/opamp/opamp_5.html > > For the 9V reference you can use a zener, voltage reference or linear > regulator. Not that here again your accuracy of measurement will be based > on the accuracy of the voltage reference and components used in the > differential amplifier. For example if the voltage reference is +/-1%, > then you could have a +/-9mV error on the voltage measurement due to > accuracy for the voltage reference. So here again if you had a 12 > effective bit ADC you might be more accurate with a simple voltage divider > and measure 0-13V, than doing the differential amplifier and measuring > 9-13V. > > Also note that your accuracy of the ADC is based on the accuracy of the > ADC voltage reference as well, so make sure you account for this as well. > > Remember that accuracy, precision, and resolution are not the same things, > for example: > > > Many people get accuracy and precision confused and assume that precision > defines accuracy, for example which of these is more accurate? > > Basically you do not know which is more accurate unless you can measure > the target value with more accuracy and precision then your samples, for > example: > > So for example if you are trying to measure to 1mV resolution and your > multimeter you are using as a golden reference is 10mV resolution you can > not calibrate the system and know you can measure to 1mV. To this end I > have found in my professional life, rather than asking about product > requirements, it is often better to ask "How are you going to measure if > this product meets your requirements?" That is if someone has their test > and validation plans defined, then requirements are known. Where if they > have requirements with no test plan, then often they have not figured out > how to measure when they are done. For engineers if you have no measure for > doneness, then they will never be done with a project. > > Trampas > > On Wed, Aug 16, 2023 at 4:29?PM The MacDougals via TriEmbed < > triembed at triembed.org> wrote: > > I know how to set up a voltage divider with a couple of resistors to > measure > > battery voltage of ~12v on an analog pin that accepts 3.3v. > > > > But, I really am interested in a small segment of the range, say 9v to > 13v. > > How would I ?zoom? in on that range? I want to subtract/bias the vbat > > by the 9v minimum. So, 9v -> 0 and 13v -> 3.3. > > > > ---> Paul > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list > > > > To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org > > List info: > http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org > > TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org > > To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto: > unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe > > Searchable email archive available at > https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list > > To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org > List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org > TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org > To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto: > unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe > Searchable email archive available at > https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 8632 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 25360 bytes Desc: not available URL: From carl.nobile at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 19:15:35 2023 From: carl.nobile at gmail.com (Carl Nobile) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2023 20:15:35 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] The latest monthly video has been published. Message-ID: Hi all, The latest video can be found here: https://youtu.be/c6aSUsGZCUg -------------------------------------------------------------- Carl J. Nobile (Software Engineer/API Design) carl.nobile at gmail.com -------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jwet at mindspring.com Fri Aug 18 20:44:39 2023 From: jwet at mindspring.com (jwet) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2023 17:44:39 -0800 Subject: [TriEmbed] Raspberry Pi idle current vs clock rate(s) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Supply current rises linearly with clock rate.??I =CVF, c is the "dissipation" capacitance = total C of swinging nodes, v is swing and F is clock rate.? There is a small constant leakage that creates an intercept.? The only power is just charging discharging the bus.Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone -------- Original message --------From: Trampas Stern via TriEmbed Date: 8/17/23 9:11 AM (GMT-09:00) To: Peter Soper Cc: Triangle Embedded Interest Group Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Raspberry Pi idle current vs clock rate(s) There are other chips consuming power beyond the processor:?https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=152692LANWIFIHDMIetc?Typically power increases exponentially?with clock rate.? However I bet the OS internally is sleeping the processor when idle, effectively dropping clock rate. I doubt your power will drop significantly by underclocking at idle unless you disable other chips and peripherals.??This most likely does not solve your problem but might answer your?question.?TrampasOn Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 1:03?PM Trampas Stern wrote:https://www.pidramble.com/wiki/benchmarks/power-consumptionOn Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 12:54?PM Peter Soper via TriEmbed wrote: Can anybody speak to this? I'm told (by an eager word-guesser aka "ai") that a Pi 4 idles around 575mA. If I drop the clock from 1200 to 600mHz (as low as it will go if my other info is right) I wonder if this will cut the idle current in half or is it likely to be a larger fraction? Pete _______________________________________________ Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe Searchable email archive available at https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trampas at gmail.com Fri Aug 18 20:50:53 2023 From: trampas at gmail.com (Trampas Stern) Date: Fri, 18 Aug 2023 21:50:53 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Raspberry Pi idle current vs clock rate(s) In-Reply-To: <64e01eb6.170a0220.b254d.551aSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> References: <64e01eb6.170a0220.b254d.551aSMTPIN_ADDED_MISSING@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Correct I made mistake and it is linear not exponential. On Fri, Aug 18, 2023, 9:45 PM jwet wrote: > Supply current rises linearly with clock rate. > I =CVF, c is the "dissipation" capacitance = total C of swinging nodes, v > is swing and F is clock rate. There is a small constant leakage that > creates an intercept. The only power is just charging discharging the bus. > > > > > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Trampas Stern via TriEmbed > Date: 8/17/23 9:11 AM (GMT-09:00) > To: Peter Soper > Cc: Triangle Embedded Interest Group > Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Raspberry Pi idle current vs clock rate(s) > > There are other chips consuming power beyond the processor: > https://forums.raspberrypi.com/viewtopic.php?t=152692 > > LAN > WIFI > HDMI > etc > > Typically power increases exponentially with clock rate. However I bet > the OS internally is sleeping the processor when idle, effectively dropping > clock rate. I doubt your power will drop significantly by underclocking at > idle unless you disable other chips and peripherals. > > This most likely does not solve your problem but might answer > your question. > > Trampas > > On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 1:03?PM Trampas Stern wrote: > >> https://www.pidramble.com/wiki/benchmarks/power-consumption >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 17, 2023 at 12:54?PM Peter Soper via TriEmbed < >> triembed at triembed.org> wrote: >> >>> Can anybody speak to this? I'm told (by an eager word-guesser aka "ai") >>> that a Pi 4 idles around 575mA. If I drop the clock from 1200 to 600mHz (as >>> low as it will go if my other info is right) I wonder if this will cut the >>> idle current in half or is it likely to be a larger fraction? >>> >>> Pete >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list >>> >>> To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org >>> List info: >>> http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org >>> TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org >>> To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto: >>> unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe >>> Searchable email archive available at >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ >>> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From kschilf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 20 12:44:24 2023 From: kschilf at yahoo.com (Kevin Schilf) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2023 17:44:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [TriEmbed] Lattice FPGA Development Kit References: <1769579093.2197629.1692553464015.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1769579093.2197629.1692553464015@mail.yahoo.com> Hi TriEmbed, This is a shameless attempt at gathering marketing data...? :-) I am putting together a FPGA development board with a Lattice FPGA. Why choose a FPGA over a micro you say?? Good question.? FPGA's are more expensive and less fuel efficient than their micro cousins but offer: - Higher throughput- The ability to create multiple parallel processing blocks.- Numerous I/O standards with more precise timing. If you don't need one of these three things you are probably better in a micro; although, I would never say no to a FPGA solution.? :-) Possibilities - HW Interfaces- Trusty GPIO of course up to about 1 Gbps, differential standards as such LVDS over 1 Gbps, high speed SerDes (serializer / deserializer) with bit rates up to several Gbps (PCIe, Ethernet, JESD, etc.) Soft Processor - Avoiding the expensive license fees associated with ARM, RISC-V is an open source Instruction set processor out of Berkeley.? Not only can you program the processor but you can change the opcodes by implementing custom instructions in the FPGA's fabric.? Linux is available.? This is a very exciting possibility? :-) IP - baseline RTL (Verilog or VHDL) code to implement certain functionality, video processing, motor control, DSP, etc.? This is the secret sauce of the FPGA, but I am looking for building blocks that could be created in advance and absorbed into more sophisticated solutions to ease getting started. Price - What is a reasonable price point in a professional, research, or academic setting? The key to success if providing a thoughtful piece of hardware WITH documentation and sample code that makes it useful out of the box.? There are enough PCB paperweights in the world already.? :-) I look forward to your input.? Thank you for your time. Kevin S -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From trampas at gmail.com Sun Aug 20 15:48:52 2023 From: trampas at gmail.com (Trampas Stern) Date: Sun, 20 Aug 2023 16:48:52 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Lattice FPGA Development Kit In-Reply-To: <1769579093.2197629.1692553464015@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1769579093.2197629.1692553464015.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1769579093.2197629.1692553464015@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: First I highly recommend everyone to create their own business. When you work for someone else you learn how to do things, when you work for yourself you start learning the right things to do. Additionally when you are in business and need to make income, you learn how the value creation feedback loop works. That is all your friends and contacts will offer you advice, but until you tune *your *feedback loop for *your *business on how to create value for *your *customers you are not really in business, it is more of a hobby. I would say the key to success is to create more value to customers than it costs them to get it from you. That is your FPGA board must create value to customers, it does not need to be thoughtful, or clever, or even well engineered. It needs to provide a positive return on value for your customers. 1. What is different about your board than other FPGA eval boards from many FPGA vendors and suppliers? 2. What value does your board and examples does it have that helps me solve my problem? Is it designed for video filtering, etc? I know I created a number of products for myself as an engineer. When I finally created a product that solves someone else's problem, I marketed, licensed it all wrong and in less than 6 months China had taken the design, firmware and the market. That is that learning was more valuable than anything I did previously, and I would not have learned that without creating business and doing it. A single product does not make a business! If you build it they will not come! If you think that if you build it, that they will come, then put the product up for sale on a website and say it is out of stock, see how many inquiries you get as to when it will be back in stock. This will prove you are right and if you build it they will come. If you are not in business, you are not improving your business! It is not about doing it right, it is about learning and improving! The process of picking products to make is more important than a product! So here are a few ideas on how to create value: *Phy protocol analyzer* We have all used scope for UART/SPI/I2C/CAN/USB signals. There are products like https://www.saleae.com/ that are great. However what if you had a product that actually did measurements and reports and told you the problems. For example a device that reported UART baud rate and other parameters and reported rise time, fall time, jitter, etc. Provide engineers the information they would normally use a scope for. Then give them all the data in a nice report format that you would be proud to show off. *Chip Replacement* Many people restore old hardware (PCs, etc) they are often looking for chip replacements, like a replacement for an 8086 or 8051, or UART controller. So what if you took an FPGA and made chip replacements? *Floppy Drive Replacement* I have old equipment that uses floppy drives. I looked for a USB flash replacement for a mechanical floppy drive. The devices I found all had major issues. I contacted a friend who restores old PCs and he indicated he wanted a better floppy drive replacement since he found the same issues. What if you used FPGA to make such a device, maybe at ESP32 such that files are available over wifi? *EEPROM/ROM Replacements* I have older cars and thought about having an EEPROM replacement where I could change the tuning of the car without flashing new firmware. Like the floppy drive the idea was to have a PCB that replaced the memory chip with USB or WIFI access. Then on the fly I could change the tuning of the car computer without reflashing chips. *Buck Boost Controller* I find many engineers do not understand buck/boost power supplies. What if you made a training system where you use an FPGA as a controller to make a 'soft' buck/boost controller? Heck even better is to make the FPGA used for analyzing power supply controllers reporting results, like phase margin, etc. Then give them all the data in a nice report format that you would be proud to show off. Are any of these ideas worth creating a product? I do not know, but they might be more valuable than a generic FPGA eval board, as they solve a specific problem out of the box in which you can find the correct customers to market products to. Trampas On Sun, Aug 20, 2023 at 1:45?PM Kevin Schilf via TriEmbed < triembed at triembed.org> wrote: > Hi TriEmbed, > > This is a shameless attempt at gathering marketing data... :-) > > I am putting together a FPGA development board with a Lattice FPGA. > > Why choose a FPGA over a micro you say? Good question. FPGA's are more > expensive and less fuel efficient than their micro cousins but offer: > > - Higher throughput > - The ability to create multiple parallel processing blocks. > - Numerous I/O standards with more precise timing. > > If you don't need one of these three things you are probably better in a > micro; although, I would never say no to a FPGA solution. :-) > > Possibilities - > > HW Interfaces- Trusty GPIO of course up to about 1 Gbps, differential > standards as such LVDS over 1 Gbps, high speed SerDes (serializer / > deserializer) with bit rates up to several Gbps (PCIe, Ethernet, JESD, etc.) > > Soft Processor - Avoiding the expensive license fees associated with ARM, > RISC-V is an open source Instruction set processor out of Berkeley. Not > only can you program the processor but you can change the opcodes by > implementing custom instructions in the FPGA's fabric. Linux is > available. This is a very exciting possibility :-) > > IP - baseline RTL (Verilog or VHDL) code to implement certain > functionality, video processing, motor control, DSP, etc. This is the > secret sauce of the FPGA, but I am looking for building blocks that could > be created in advance and absorbed into more sophisticated solutions to > ease getting started. > > Price - What is a reasonable price point in a professional, research, or > academic setting? > > The key to success if providing a thoughtful piece of hardware WITH > documentation and sample code that makes it useful out of the box. There > are enough PCB paperweights in the world already. :-) > > I look forward to your input. Thank you for your time. > > Kevin S > _______________________________________________ > Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list > > To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org > List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org > TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org > To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto: > unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe > Searchable email archive available at > https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pete at soper.us Mon Aug 21 09:11:42 2023 From: pete at soper.us (Peter Soper) Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2023 10:11:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TriEmbed] Big Lidar improvement coming Message-ID: <0434f897-44a6-4da9-a1d9-d13b7fccb29d@soper.us> Lidar on a Chip Puts Self-Driving Cars in the Fast Lane - https://spectrum.ieee.org/lidar-on-a-chip -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From paulmacdnc at att.net Tue Aug 22 13:42:10 2023 From: paulmacdnc at att.net (The MacDougals) Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2023 14:42:10 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] FYI: General AMG meeting In-Reply-To: <65030aed86cf96239bcf89468.2092b29c7a.20230822161354.d9208f9ba6.abd8986b@mail108.suw151.rsgsv.net> References: <65030aed86cf96239bcf89468.2092b29c7a.20230822161354.d9208f9ba6.abd8986b@mail108.suw151.rsgsv.net> Message-ID: <03d401d9d528$5c857ac0$15907040$@att.net> From: Alamance Makers Guild Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2023 12:14 PM To: Paul Subject: General AMG meeting View this email in your browser General AMG Meeting Just a quik reminder that the Guild will be holding a general meeting Wednesday Aug. 23rd. This meeting will be held at the May Memorial Library and it will begin at 6:00 pm. We will start the meeting with our usual "Show and Tell." So, please bring your recent projects--and the attendant stories and lessons learned. These can be completed or in-process. Remember, one of the central missions of the guild is to teach and inspire one another. So, please join us so that we may all gain from one another. In what time remains, Chris Brokes will lead a discussion centered on the topic "Getting Started with 3D Printing." I know that many members are experienced users of 3D printers, but many of us are new to this domain. Again, please join us for what promises to be an educational conversation for all. If you have any friends who might be interested in this event, please share this invitation with them. This meeting is free and open to the public. Copyright ? 2023 Alamance Makers Guild, All rights reserved. You are receiving this email because you opted in at some point, or were added as being a supporter of Alamance Makers Guild. Our mailing address is: Alamance Makers Guild 1410 Greenwood Terrace Burlington, NC 27215 Add us to your address book Want to change how you receive these emails? You can update your preferences or unsubscribe from this list. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pete at soper.us Sun Aug 27 20:52:08 2023 From: pete at soper.us (Pete soper) Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2023 21:52:08 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Novel approach for low power logic from Intel Message-ID: <059ea6e1-316c-ab67-428e-4fae05871c59@soper.us> https://www.wired.com/2012/02/intel-solar-chip-nears-light-of-day/ Pete From jwet at mindspring.com Mon Aug 28 15:48:48 2023 From: jwet at mindspring.com (John Wettroth) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2023 16:48:48 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Novel approach for low power logic from Intel In-Reply-To: <059ea6e1-316c-ab67-428e-4fae05871c59@soper.us> References: <059ea6e1-316c-ab67-428e-4fae05871c59@soper.us> Message-ID: <000d01d9d9f1$0bad1ae0$230750a0$@mindspring.com> I'm surprised that Intel is claiming this as really novel. The Claremont Architecture mentioned was being talked about as the IA in 2012. It grew out of the Atom processors that ran in this near threshold/sub threshold region. Lot of companies have used techniques like this for decades. Most digital stuff that runs at these absurd low voltages is subthreshold or near. The very low power Microchip (nanoWatt XLP) parts use these techniques. Intel's FINFET operate below .7v already. There was a startup called SuVolta that was based on these techniques- it disappeared (acquired or folded?) about five years ago. Freescale had some dynamic power stuff that played games with the "body" or substrate connection to modulate threshold voltage. It let them make parts that operate in strong inversion at high speeds with higher class A type leakage currents but could downshift to a slower, low leakage mode by manipulating the body voltage. They could do this on the fly- don't know what happened to it- good fodder for ISSC conferences of the day. Press releases are written by investor relations guys that don't have a firm handle on the technology and mainly into promotion. Ironically, the old 40 or so nm process nodes were much better in these respects. I think 7 nm might have overshot the mark. Take Care- Regards, John M. Wettroth E: jwet at mindspring.com M: (919) 349-9875 H: (984) 329-5420 Searchable email archive available at https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ From jwet at mindspring.com Mon Aug 28 16:22:58 2023 From: jwet at mindspring.com (John Wettroth) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2023 17:22:58 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Novel approach for low power logic from Intel In-Reply-To: <000d01d9d9f1$0bad1ae0$230750a0$@mindspring.com> References: <059ea6e1-316c-ab67-428e-4fae05871c59@soper.us> <000d01d9d9f1$0bad1ae0$230750a0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <000e01d9d9f5$d14ba1f0$73e2e5d0$@mindspring.com> Just noticed that the press release was from 2012- DOH! Oh well. Regards, John M. Wettroth E: jwet at mindspring.com M: (919) 349-9875 H: (984) 329-5420 -----Original Message----- From: TriEmbed On Behalf Of John Wettroth via TriEmbed Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 4:49 PM To: 'Pete soper' ; 'Triangle Embedded Interest Group' Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Novel approach for low power logic from Intel I'm surprised that Intel is claiming this as really novel. The Claremont Architecture mentioned was being talked about as the IA in 2012. It grew out of the Atom processors that ran in this near threshold/sub threshold region. Lot of companies have used techniques like this for decades. Most digital stuff that runs at these absurd low voltages is subthreshold or near. The very low power Microchip (nanoWatt XLP) parts use these techniques. Intel's FINFET operate below .7v already. There was a startup called SuVolta that was based on these techniques- it disappeared (acquired or folded?) about five years ago. Freescale had some dynamic power stuff that played games with the "body" or substrate connection to modulate threshold voltage. It let them make parts that operate in strong inversion at high speeds with higher class A type leakage currents but could downshift to a slower, low leakage mode by manipulating the body voltage. They could do this on the fly- don't know what happened to it- good fodder for ISSC conferences of the day. Press releases are written by investor relations guys that don't have a firm handle on the technology and mainly into promotion. Ironically, the old 40 or so nm process nodes were much better in these respects. I think 7 nm might have overshot the mark. Take Care- Regards, John M. Wettroth E: jwet at mindspring.com M: (919) 349-9875 H: (984) 329-5420 Searchable email archive available at https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ _______________________________________________ Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe Searchable email archive available at https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ From pete at soper.us Mon Aug 28 19:14:42 2023 From: pete at soper.us (Peter Soper) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2023 20:14:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TriEmbed] Novel approach for low power logic from Intel In-Reply-To: <000e01d9d9f5$d14ba1f0$73e2e5d0$@mindspring.com> References: <059ea6e1-316c-ab67-428e-4fae05871c59@soper.us> <000d01d9d9f1$0bad1ae0$230750a0$@mindspring.com> <000e01d9d9f5$d14ba1f0$73e2e5d0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Ugh. Sorry. Aug 28, 2023 5:23:42 PM John Wettroth : > Just noticed that the press release was from 2012- DOH!? Oh well. > > > Regards, > John M. Wettroth > E: jwet at mindspring.com > M: (919) 349-9875 > H:? (984) 329-5420 > > -----Original Message----- > From: TriEmbed On Behalf Of John Wettroth via > TriEmbed > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 4:49 PM > To: 'Pete soper' ; 'Triangle Embedded Interest Group' > > Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Novel approach for low power logic from Intel > > I'm surprised that Intel is claiming this as really novel.? The Claremont > Architecture mentioned was being talked about as the IA in 2012.? It grew out of > the Atom processors that ran in this near threshold/sub threshold region.? Lot > of companies have used techniques like this for decades.? Most digital stuff > that runs at these absurd low voltages is subthreshold or near.? The very low > power Microchip (nanoWatt XLP) parts use these techniques.? Intel's FINFET > operate below .7v already.? There was a startup called SuVolta that was based on > these techniques- it disappeared (acquired or folded?) about five years ago. > Freescale had some dynamic power stuff that played games with the "body" or > substrate connection to modulate threshold voltage.? It let them make parts that > operate in strong inversion at high speeds? with higher class A type leakage > currents but could downshift to a slower, low leakage mode by manipulating the > body voltage.? They could do this on the fly- don't know what happened to it- > good fodder for ISSC conferences of the day.? Press releases are written by > investor relations guys that don't have a firm handle on the? technology and > mainly into promotion.? Ironically, the old 40 or so nm process nodes were much > better in these respects.? I think 7 nm might have overshot the mark. > > Take Care- > > Regards, > John M. Wettroth > E: jwet at mindspring.com > M: (919) 349-9875 > H:? (984) 329-5420 > > Searchable email archive available at > https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list > > To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org > List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org > TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org > To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: > mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe > Searchable email archive available at > https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ From mikelisanke at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 19:32:05 2023 From: mikelisanke at gmail.com (Mike Lisanke) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2023 20:32:05 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Novel approach for low power logic from Intel In-Reply-To: References: <059ea6e1-316c-ab67-428e-4fae05871c59@soper.us> <000d01d9d9f1$0bad1ae0$230750a0$@mindspring.com> <000e01d9d9f5$d14ba1f0$73e2e5d0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Good catch on date! I didn't understand because there's So Much Energy Harvest technology that running a chip on a solar cell (2 sq in?) seemed ridiculously easy to me. I didn't read much further into the article thinking there was a mistake Or something unique. I don't know what size chip can boot/work with Just RF harvest but there's many. On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 8:15?PM Peter Soper via TriEmbed < triembed at triembed.org> wrote: > Ugh. Sorry. > > Aug 28, 2023 5:23:42 PM John Wettroth : > > > Just noticed that the press release was from 2012- DOH! Oh well. > > > > > > Regards, > > John M. Wettroth > > E: jwet at mindspring.com > > M: (919) 349-9875 > > H: (984) 329-5420 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: TriEmbed On Behalf Of John > Wettroth via > > TriEmbed > > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 4:49 PM > > To: 'Pete soper' ; 'Triangle Embedded Interest Group' > > > > Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Novel approach for low power logic from Intel > > > > I'm surprised that Intel is claiming this as really novel. The Claremont > > Architecture mentioned was being talked about as the IA in 2012. It > grew out of > > the Atom processors that ran in this near threshold/sub threshold > region. Lot > > of companies have used techniques like this for decades. Most digital > stuff > > that runs at these absurd low voltages is subthreshold or near. The > very low > > power Microchip (nanoWatt XLP) parts use these techniques. Intel's > FINFET > > operate below .7v already. There was a startup called SuVolta that was > based on > > these techniques- it disappeared (acquired or folded?) about five years > ago. > > Freescale had some dynamic power stuff that played games with the "body" > or > > substrate connection to modulate threshold voltage. It let them make > parts that > > operate in strong inversion at high speeds with higher class A type > leakage > > currents but could downshift to a slower, low leakage mode by > manipulating the > > body voltage. They could do this on the fly- don't know what happened > to it- > > good fodder for ISSC conferences of the day. Press releases are written > by > > investor relations guys that don't have a firm handle on the technology > and > > mainly into promotion. Ironically, the old 40 or so nm process nodes > were much > > better in these respects. I think 7 nm might have overshot the mark. > > > > Take Care- > > > > Regards, > > John M. Wettroth > > E: jwet at mindspring.com > > M: (919) 349-9875 > > H: (984) 329-5420 > > > > Searchable email archive available at > > https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list > > > > To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org > > List info: > http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org > > TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org > > To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: > > mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe > > Searchable email archive available at > > https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > > _______________________________________________ > Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list > > To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org > List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org > TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org > To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto: > unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe > Searchable email archive available at > https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > > -- Best regards, Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pete at soper.us Mon Aug 28 19:36:46 2023 From: pete at soper.us (Peter Soper) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2023 20:36:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TriEmbed] Novel approach for low power logic from Intel In-Reply-To: References: <059ea6e1-316c-ab67-428e-4fae05871c59@soper.us> <000d01d9d9f1$0bad1ae0$230750a0$@mindspring.com> <000e01d9d9f5$d14ba1f0$73e2e5d0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: The novelty to me was the frequency being varied across a 300X range as the PS voltage was varied across a 5X range on the fly. I'd heard of very low supply voltages but not the dynamism. Pete Aug 28, 2023 8:32:49 PM Mike Lisanke : > Good catch on date! > I didn't understand because there's So Much Energy Harvest technology that running a chip on a solar cell (2 sq in?) seemed ridiculously?easy to me.? > I didn't read much further into the article thinking there was a mistake Or something unique. I don't know what size chip can boot/work with Just RF harvest but there's many.? > > On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 8:15?PM Peter Soper via TriEmbed wrote: >> Ugh. Sorry. >> >> Aug 28, 2023 5:23:42 PM John Wettroth : >> >>> Just noticed that the press release was from 2012- DOH!? Oh well. >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> John M. Wettroth >>> E: jwet at mindspring.com >>> M: (919) 349-9875 >>> H:? (984) 329-5420 >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: TriEmbed On Behalf Of John Wettroth via >>> TriEmbed >>> Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 4:49 PM >>> To: 'Pete soper' ; 'Triangle Embedded Interest Group' >>> >>> Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Novel approach for low power logic from Intel >>> >>> I'm surprised that Intel is claiming this as really novel.? The Claremont >>> Architecture mentioned was being talked about as the IA in 2012.? It grew out of >>> the Atom processors that ran in this near threshold/sub threshold region.? Lot >>> of companies have used techniques like this for decades.? Most digital stuff >>> that runs at these absurd low voltages is subthreshold or near.? The very low >>> power Microchip (nanoWatt XLP) parts use these techniques.? Intel's FINFET >>> operate below .7v already.? There was a startup called SuVolta that was based on >>> these techniques- it disappeared (acquired or folded?) about five years ago. >>> Freescale had some dynamic power stuff that played games with the "body" or >>> substrate connection to modulate threshold voltage.? It let them make parts that >>> operate in strong inversion at high speeds? with higher class A type leakage >>> currents but could downshift to a slower, low leakage mode by manipulating the >>> body voltage.? They could do this on the fly- don't know what happened to it- >>> good fodder for ISSC conferences of the day.? Press releases are written by >>> investor relations guys that don't have a firm handle on the? technology and >>> mainly into promotion.? Ironically, the old 40 or so nm process nodes were much >>> better in these respects.? I think 7 nm might have overshot the mark. >>> >>> Take Care- >>> >>> Regards, >>> John M. Wettroth >>> E: jwet at mindspring.com >>> M: (919) 349-9875 >>> H:? (984) 329-5420 >>> >>> Searchable email archive available at >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list >>> >>> To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org >>> List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org >>> TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org >>> To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: >>> mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe >>> Searchable email archive available at >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list >> >> To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org >> List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org >> TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org >> To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe >> Searchable email archive available at https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ >> > > > -- > Best regards,? Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jwet at mindspring.com Tue Aug 29 10:51:27 2023 From: jwet at mindspring.com (John Wettroth) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2023 11:51:27 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Novel approach for low power logic from Intel In-Reply-To: References: <059ea6e1-316c-ab67-428e-4fae05871c59@soper.us> <000d01d9d9f1$0bad1ae0$230750a0$@mindspring.com> <000e01d9d9f5$d14ba1f0$73e2e5d0$@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <002301d9da90$ac4af680$04e0e380$@mindspring.com> There are two general techniques under the heading of voltage scaling. DVS or dynamic voltage scaling does this in kind of an open loop way- vary the voltage and clock with kind of lookup table. AVS or adaptive voltage scaling is closed loop, they have a kind of a small model of the process on chip that they can play with V and F (like a ring oscillator driving a counter, etc.). This was called CPE, critical path emulation. We had a group at Maxim that was trying to do similar things in the analog/mixed signal domain. Current is just CVF + leakage. Leakage is generally small portion but at low frequencies becomes significant. You can play substrate tricks to reduce leakage, then its just C, V and F. You have more control of C than you?d think, you can turn off big blocks when not in use- V and F is what?s left. Regards, John M. Wettroth E: jwet at mindspring.com M: (919) 349-9875 H: (984) 329-5420 From: Peter Soper Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 8:37 PM To: Mike Lisanke Cc: John Wettroth ; Triangle Embedded Interest Group Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Novel approach for low power logic from Intel The novelty to me was the frequency being varied across a 300X range as the PS voltage was varied across a 5X range on the fly. I'd heard of very low supply voltages but not the dynamism. Pete Aug 28, 2023 8:32:49 PM Mike Lisanke >: Good catch on date! I didn't understand because there's So Much Energy Harvest technology that running a chip on a solar cell (2 sq in?) seemed ridiculously easy to me. I didn't read much further into the article thinking there was a mistake Or something unique. I don't know what size chip can boot/work with Just RF harvest but there's many. On Mon, Aug 28, 2023 at 8:15?PM Peter Soper via TriEmbed > wrote: Ugh. Sorry. Aug 28, 2023 5:23:42 PM John Wettroth >: > Just noticed that the press release was from 2012- DOH! Oh well. > > > Regards, > John M. Wettroth > E: jwet at mindspring.com > M: (919) 349-9875 > H: (984) 329-5420 > > -----Original Message----- > From: TriEmbed > On Behalf Of John Wettroth via > TriEmbed > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2023 4:49 PM > To: 'Pete soper' >; 'Triangle Embedded Interest Group' > > > Subject: Re: [TriEmbed] Novel approach for low power logic from Intel > > I'm surprised that Intel is claiming this as really novel. The Claremont > Architecture mentioned was being talked about as the IA in 2012. It grew out of > the Atom processors that ran in this near threshold/sub threshold region. Lot > of companies have used techniques like this for decades. Most digital stuff > that runs at these absurd low voltages is subthreshold or near. The very low > power Microchip (nanoWatt XLP) parts use these techniques. Intel's FINFET > operate below .7v already. There was a startup called SuVolta that was based on > these techniques- it disappeared (acquired or folded?) about five years ago. > Freescale had some dynamic power stuff that played games with the "body" or > substrate connection to modulate threshold voltage. It let them make parts that > operate in strong inversion at high speeds with higher class A type leakage > currents but could downshift to a slower, low leakage mode by manipulating the > body voltage. They could do this on the fly- don't know what happened to it- > good fodder for ISSC conferences of the day. Press releases are written by > investor relations guys that don't have a firm handle on the technology and > mainly into promotion. Ironically, the old 40 or so nm process nodes were much > better in these respects. I think 7 nm might have overshot the mark. > > Take Care- > > Regards, > John M. Wettroth > E: jwet at mindspring.com > M: (919) 349-9875 > H: (984) 329-5420 > > Searchable email archive available at > https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > > > _______________________________________________ > Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list > > To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org > List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org > TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org > To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: > mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net ?subject=unsubscribe > Searchable email archive available at > https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ _______________________________________________ Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto:unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net ?subject=unsubscribe Searchable email archive available at https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ -- Best regards, Mike -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From lugmail at undecidedgames.com Thu Aug 31 12:47:48 2023 From: lugmail at undecidedgames.com (Brian) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2023 13:47:48 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Solder paste vs mask question Message-ID: <2490db90-02ea-fa01-6132-a386f24f80af@undecidedgames.com> Hi, I'm hoping some list denizens have experience that'll help me understand this: I've got a footprint for a 8-WDFN part from UltraLibrarian. The footprint as-downloaded has negative mask expansion and offset paste regions. This is hard to describe, hmmm... 1. The soldermask layer has no openings at all (I think this is pretty obviously an error) 2. The paste layer has the stencil openings offset outward from the pads. Imagine the following crude ascii art as layers superimposed on top of each other: Copper: [_pad_] [_pad_] Paste: [_____] [_____] So that'd have paste partially on the exposed copper pad and partially on soldermask (assuming I fix problem #1 so that the pad is exposed). Is this at all normal for this kind of part? Do other people run into such egregious problems in UltraLibrarian CAD models? Thanks, -Brian From trampas at gmail.com Thu Aug 31 13:05:02 2023 From: trampas at gmail.com (Trampas Stern) Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2023 14:05:02 -0400 Subject: [TriEmbed] Solder paste vs mask question In-Reply-To: <2490db90-02ea-fa01-6132-a386f24f80af@undecidedgames.com> References: <2490db90-02ea-fa01-6132-a386f24f80af@undecidedgames.com> Message-ID: Yes! My experience is that the footprints and symbols are often wrong from the UltraLibrarian and other symbol and footprint providers. I got one footprint for a 100mil through hole that had solder mask over the pads. Others were missing holes, etc. I find that I prefer to build my own symbols and footprints using Altium and then find a 3D model of the part to verify the footprint. That is place a 3D model over the footprint and verify it fits. Trampas On Thu, Aug 31, 2023 at 1:58?PM Brian via TriEmbed wrote: > Hi, > > I'm hoping some list denizens have experience that'll help me understand > this: > > I've got a footprint for a 8-WDFN part from UltraLibrarian. The > footprint as-downloaded has negative mask expansion and offset paste > regions. This is hard to describe, hmmm... > > 1. The soldermask layer has no openings at all (I think this is pretty > obviously an error) > 2. The paste layer has the stencil openings offset outward from the > pads. Imagine the following crude ascii art as layers superimposed on > top of each other: > > Copper: [_pad_] [_pad_] > Paste: [_____] [_____] > > So that'd have paste partially on the exposed copper pad and partially > on soldermask (assuming I fix problem #1 so that the pad is exposed). > > Is this at all normal for this kind of part? Do other people run into > such egregious problems in UltraLibrarian CAD models? > > Thanks, > -Brian > > _______________________________________________ > Triangle, NC Embedded Interest Group mailing list > > To post message: TriEmbed at triembed.org > List info: http://mail.triembed.org/mailman/listinfo/triembed_triembed.org > TriEmbed web site: https://TriEmbed.org > To unsubscribe, click link and send a blank message: mailto: > unsubscribe-TriEmbed at bitser.net?subject=unsubscribe > Searchable email archive available at > https://www.mail-archive.com/triembed at triembed.org/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: